mouthpiece buzzing Yes or No

Tbone00 · by **Tbone00** » 2020-10-19 6:43 p.m.

Hello Everybody, Lets open the Pandora's box.

In my last years I have had a teacher who has always been against mouthpiece buzzing because "mouthpiece buzzing is totally different from playing, the resistance is not the same and it can causes tension (especially in the high register) but this year my new teacher is a big fan of mouthpiece buzzing and he recommends using it to warm up, for the high and low register and for the sound because it "help you to use more air". I believe that both arguments are true but I am not aware if I am wasting my time with the mouthpiece or it is really helping me.

what you think about this? why yes or why not to play on the mouthpiece and for what moments yes and for what moments no (with arguments!)

thank you guys!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-10-19 7:56 p.m.

A little buzzing is good. A lot, no.

I buzz as my initial warmup to get the embouchure working. I may also buzz as a form of practice at times.

Buzzing for more than 10 minutes or so doesn't help. Take frequent breaks.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2020-10-19 8:52 p.m.

It's an activity that can help you "strengthen your foundation" if you do it wisely.

Think of that analogy, though- what use is a foundation if you don't build anything on top of it? It is ONLY a supplement to regular playing.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-10-19 8:54 p.m.

"if you practice on the mouthpiece, you practice a horrible sound"

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-10-19 8:58 p.m.

Yes and no.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2020-10-19 9:18 p.m.

As long as you realize how it’s different from playing your horn, it can be useful.

I don’t buzz anymore (other than to demonstrate), but I’m glad I did ten years ago.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-10-19 9:32 p.m.

<YOUTUBE id="BVWajJ6bEGI">https://youtu.be/BVWajJ6bEGI</YOUTUBE>

Rusty · by **Rusty** » 2020-10-19 9:50 p.m.

I use it in beginner warm ups to Buzz a few sirens and maybe some simple melodies, but I’ve always found it stuffs up my embouchure on the horn due to the different resistance. I prefer taking off my outer slide and doing top tube buzzing, which is a similar resistance to the horn itself.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-10-19 9:58 p.m.

I like a little freebuzzing, and a little mouthpiece buzzing. But you have to understand why you're doing it. Just doing it to do it is a waste of time. Doing it to strengthen your embouchure and the link between your chops and your ears is why I do it.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2020-10-20 3:22 a.m.

I think this is individual. It might depends on how we do it? For some it might help, for others it might not. We have to try and see. There is maybe no definitive answer. Maybe not do it too much, it can create tension. I do it sometimes in the car as warm up.

Leif

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-10-20 3:59 a.m.

If your embouchure is stable and self supporting....in other words, not relying on rim pressure or instrument back pressure, freebuzzing and mouthpiece buzzing are valuable tools...I freebuzz on the way to work to warm up. Many fine players need the rim and/or instrument resistance to vibrate their lips effectively and may find free and mouthpiece buzzing detrimental to their playing.

So that adds up to yes and no.

Chris

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2020-10-20 4:54 a.m.

I used to have mouthpiece buzzing as an important part of my warm-up, but at some point I noticed my sound was systemically slightly better and embouchure felt more relaxed on occasional days where I skipped it. I realized it wasn't serving a purpose and wasn't helping anything, so I stopped and haven't looked back.

I still use it as a practice tool though, in particular when I want to isolate issues or clean up passages.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2020-10-20 10:47 a.m.

This reminds me how much of music pedagogy is just traditions, slogans and anecdotes.

One teacher will insist on something, the next will have no use for it.

Very little of it is validated objectively... who has enough students long enough to do a full double blind clinical trial anyway?

I suspect, deep down, each teacher's repertoire of strategies and tricks is mostly there because it has passed the, "It's what I did, I think it worked for me" test.

I was in a trombone choir where the teacher insisted we freebbuzz our first note before every piece. I guess it worked for him.

I mouthpiece buzz for a few moments before I practice just to get my lips flapping. It makes me feel like I'm more ready. Once, I picked up my horn and played without any buzzing beforehand. It sounded so bad i put it back in the case and didn't take it out for another three years.

If that horn ever gets out of the case again, i will buzz first before I play. I think it worked for me.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-10-20 11:02 a.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]This reminds me how much of music pedagogy is just traditions, slogans and anecdotes.

One teacher will insist on something, the next will have no use for it.

Very little of it is validated objectively... who has enough students long enough to do a full double blind clinical trial anyway?

I suspect, deep down, each teacher's repertoire of strategies and tricks is mostly there because it has passed the, "It's what I did, I think it worked for me" test.

I was in a trombone choir where the teacher insisted we freebbuzz our first note before every piece. I guess it worked for him.

I mouthpiece buzz for a few moments before I practice just to get my lips flapping. It makes me feel like I'm more ready. Once, I picked up my horn and played without any buzzing beforehand. It sounded so bad i put it back in the case and didn't take it out for another three years.

If that horn ever gets out of the case again, i will buzz first before I play. I think it worked for me.[/quote]
If that is really all teaching is about, nobody in their right mind would take a lesson.

Chris

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2020-10-20 11:29 a.m.

Music is an aural experience, and all around the world is built on deep traditions and a lot of trial and error. It's not surprising that a lot of it is tradition, slogans, and anecdotes. Some chaff gets in the wheat from time to time, but that's true of everything.

Tbone00 · by **Tbone00** » 2020-10-20 11:33 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]"if you practice on the mouthpiece, you practice a horrible sound"[/quote]
so if you practice free buzzing do you practice a horrible sound? :pant: :pant:

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2020-10-20 4:38 p.m.

Suppose you have a nice high range free-buzzing but on the piece or horn the same notes are more effortful. Practicing to resolve the difference may be a good idea, that is, to convert the easy free-buzz into easy on the horn.

bassbone721 · by **bassbone721** » 2020-10-20 6:08 p.m.

I like mouthpiece buzzing because it helps me center all my notes and make sure I'm putting the right pitch into my horn. It's what I've learned but I'm also developing in my playing.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-10-20 7:48 p.m.

[quote="Tbone00"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="128199" time="1603155268" user_id="3642">
"if you practice on the mouthpiece, you practice a horrible sound"[/quote]
so if you practice free buzzing do you practice a horrible sound? :pant: :pant:
</QUOTE>

Yes. You have to create resistance somehow using your body to create a buzz without the resistance if the horn to do it for you. That resistance from your body carries over into playing on the horn and you either have to unlearn it or it creates .... "A horrible sound"

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-10-21 2:33 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Tbone00" post_id="128242" time="1603208036" user_id="9832">

so if you practice free buzzing do you practice a horrible sound? :pant: :pant:[/quote]

Yes. You have to create resistance somehow using your body to create a buzz without the resistance if the horn to do it for you. That resistance from your body carries over into playing on the horn and you either have to unlearn it or it creates .... "A horrible sound"
</QUOTE>

You obviously have a technique that is unsuited to rim or freebuzzing. Not everyone is like that.

Chris

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2020-10-21 4:08 a.m.

Try everything- use what works for YOU !!

-- Sam Burtis

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-10-21 4:09 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="128283" time="1603237719" user_id="3642">

Yes. You have to create resistance somehow using your body to create a buzz without the resistance if the horn to do it for you. That resistance from your body carries over into playing on the horn and you either have to unlearn it or it creates .... "A horrible sound"[/quote]

You obviously have a technique that is unsuited to rim or freebuzzing. Not everyone is like that.

Chris
</QUOTE>

In the interest of friendly discussion about the subject, and with no ill intent whatsoever, I'll proceed cautiously. I've written this before and was pooh-poohed, but looking through the studies of the physics of brass I'm sure that most teachers have got it wrong.

<B>

I am sure that there is actually no way to create a buzz or freebuzz without introducing extra resistance into the system</B>, and if you assume that the resistance created by the instrument is the basic state, the "faked" resistance to buzz on stuff that isn't the whole instrument is unhelpful and damaging. Here is why:

1. The sound produced by a brass instrument is a result of the air inside a tube being forced into a sympathetic vibration within that tube. There is a series of points of equilibrium (the harmonic overtone series) where the air column will "slot" and a clear note is produced. So you can change how much you agitate or vibrate or "energize" that air in the tube, but mostly whatever you do will sound bad unless you've hit these "slots" where everything is in equilibrium. Take the resistance (the horn) away, and the lips stop vibrating. Add the horn back on and the pitch starts again. The sound is (or at least should be) from all of the air in the tube vibrating, and not just the sound of the lips in the mouthpiece.

2. In a tube that doesn't change length, like a natural horn, or baroque trumpet, or ... a mouthpiece... the further out of pitch you try to force the sound from these points on the harmonic series, the worse it sounds. This is why trying to lip pitches down in a warm-up (no idea why teachers do that) sounds bad, and the best teachers are always telling their students to play exactly in the center of the pitch, and move the slide to tune. Most students don't know what that means. What they are really saying is to "fix" the length of the tubing first, and to have the lip playing the pitch that is exactly in the center of the point of equilibrium on that fixed length of tubing to get the best sound.

3. Based on the above, the pitch and harmonic series is completely based on the length of the tube, and the level and quality of energy that gets it vibrating. A trombone is like a 9-12 foot tube, and at its full length you can feel that the resistance of the whole system is different. The blow is different in 7th position. How you reach equilibrium and make a beautiful sound in 7th position is very different from 1st position. I think everyone can agree with this. So... What is the length of a mouthpiece? 3 inches? I do not think any human being is capable of playing the actual points of equilibrium on a three inch pipe, and finding the harmonic series. There is hardly any air in it to get vibrating, so it has almost no resistance at all. You would have to move your entire lungs worth of air through the mouthpiece in about one second, and the root of the harmonic series would be like Bb6. So straight away, everything you buzz on a mouthpiece is by its very nature a forced false tone, octaves out of pitch from the harmonic series of the pipe it's buzzed on. Also, just like false tones on the trombone, you must compensate for being so far out of the harmonic series by creating a false point of resistance. It could be that you push your lips together harder than you would of you were playing a trombone, or you put your finger over the hole of the shank, or you REALLY clamp your lips together for free buzzing. But none of that should be happening when you are playing your trombone.

4. If you know #1 above is true, which I think no one can really argue with, and if you know #2 is true, which anyone who has tried to lip false tones or lip a note down a half step can probably agree with, then #3 should logically follow. Mouthpiece buzzing is 100% the practice of false tones on a 3in instrument octaves below its unplayable harmonic series in a way that is completely different to playing the trombone, many hundreds of times different from the difference between the feel of 1st position and 7th. You can try the test if you don't believe it, where you buzz your best middle F and then slowly slide the buzzing mouthpiece into the leadpipe -- it will sound horrible. I have seen one video where a really outstanding player goes from free rim to mouthpiece to horn to try and disprove it, and you can see where he changes his setup for each change.

So, again, that's my friendly and hopefully constructive take on it. There are MANY players who are a thousand times better than me who buzz every day, but I think they'd be 1200 times better than me if they stopped spending time buzzing and unlearning buzzing every time they practiced. The only counterargument that is usually proposed is "no, it actually helps" ... which isn't helpful to anyone. I haven't seen anyone show how it helps. I would love to see something showing what it does to help players improve, and how it doesn't teach them to play with tighter lips. If a teacher teaches "play dead center on the pitch, and if you're out of tune a bit, move the slide but stay centered on it as it changes", I don't know how they can also teach "buzz octaves out of pitch, and keep changing pitches that you can't center on, because the mouthpiece is one length only"

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-10-21 5:33 a.m.

I forgot who, maybe joe alessi but i don’t know just someone in a good orchestra, said that most players will try to simulate resistance by moving their tongue to feel right. Once they go back to the horn they have a really bad habit. I’m not sure if it’s true, but i always buzz with a leadpipe, easy and something that i have on hand

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-10-21 7:06 a.m.

I think that it is impossible to tell if buzzing is good or bad for someone else. Buzzing can be done on different ways. In the 50th I learned to buzz (in lessons) with the lips pressed together. It actually did nothing good for me, others who buzzed the same way clamed that it made wonder for them. Ok. Both freebuzzing and mpc buzzing was done that way. For me that wasen´t good. I also tried the free buzzing method with the lower lip turned over the bottom teeth, well for me it did nothing good. I do buzz today on a more open way with more air flow (flow does not mean a lot of air, just flow with less resistance) free buzzing needs more lip resisting that mpc buzzing, playing the horn need less resisting then mpc buzzing, so playing F on the and taking the mpc out the horn makes the F stop. I can not tell how anybody else choud buzz, or not buzz especially on the net.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-10-21 7:14 a.m.

Of coure the reistance changes when playing F on staff on first vs 7 or using the f atachement. Or playing with mutes or playing false tones. Or playing in warm or cold envirement. The profile of the air column changes drasticly when slide goes from first position to seventh. When in seventh position the horn is much more conically, That means that the particals line up differently.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-10-21 8:12 a.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]Of coure the reistance changes when playing F on staff on first vs 7 or using the f atachement. Or playing with mutes or playing false tones. Or playing in warm or cold envirement. The profile of the air column changes drasticly when slide goes from first position to seventh. When in seventh position the horn is much more conically, That means that the particals line up differently.[/quote]

And that's just the difference between 9ft amd 13ft long. A mouthpiece is 3 in.

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2020-10-21 8:18 a.m.

Harrison, do you use a gymnasium, exercise bikes, weights etc? If so, do they negatively affect your ability to function or improve it?

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2020-10-21 8:42 a.m.

A couple of things are happening with my freebuzz right now. One is that around pedal A it wants a lower pout and upper curl to get lower. It migrates to a different set. And then it will go deep into the double pedals. On the horn it will stretch its setting just about as deep, but the sound has always been unsatisfying. So using the freebuzz as an example, a little conscious pout and curl at about that point is resulting in much better sound. It's not a different set on the horn, just a little nudge in posture.

The other is that high freebuzz happens almost effortlessly (except for air pressure in the torso) well above ordinary horn range. And it will connect down to that pedal point. But in comparison to the piece or the horn, it's clear that high freebuzz wants a lot more "chop in the piece" than has been my practice on the piece or the horn. So I experiment trying to achieve the freebuzz posture on the horn. It sure feels weird, but there are indications something good may happen.

So my vote is all forms of buzzing can provide useful movement inspiration.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-10-21 9:33 a.m.

[quote="Pre59"]Harrison, do you use a gymnasium, exercise bikes, weights etc? If so, do they negatively affect your ability to function or improve it?[/quote]

I don't think you can equate the two. Buzzing is not lifting weights. And if it is, then as I've said, I think it's bad form. If you lift weights with bad form, you don't improve, and worst case you get hurt.

But we are talking about tiny muscles. Helper muscles. These tiny muscles usually need better brain/nerve/fiber connections, not 'bulking up' like you'd get from stressing the major muscle groups out with weights.

So, yes, I work out with those things, but no, I don't think trombone playing is about strength. It's about finesse and muscle memory.

Apples and oranges

cmcslide · by **cmcslide** » 2020-10-21 9:56 a.m.

When I teach, and I know I'm not the only teacher who uses this method, I may have a student sing a short excerpt from an etude, then buzz that same short bit on the mouthpiece and finally play it on the horn and I do get results. When they buzz, I ask them not to try to slot directly into the pitches, but to slide around from pitch to pitch, not even tonguing, and keep steady air moving. I think that this is what they are getting from the buzzing, the concept of a constant air stream. It is this air stream that helps them improve tone and accuracy, not focusing on a really nice buzz. I only ask them to buzz in small doses (like a four bar excerpt).

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2020-10-21 10:47 a.m.

I don't buzz as much as I used to. Another data point, I do not play nearly as well as I used to.

I think it was on the Bob Sanders episode of "The Trombone Corner" that had a version of 'You buzz, you played better, isn't that enough to tell you that it works?'

I think worrying about the difference in the airstream and resistance of the horn is overthinking the issue. Put on a BERP if you must... there are lessons to be learned from buzzing and making sure the input is good to the system. It is NOT a cure-all. It isn't fool proof that doing it willy-nilly without conscious effort will help. Focused practice, whether scales on the horn or buzzing at the lips or mouthpiece requires attention and feedback. Use your brain and don't copy things that don't help on the horn. Learn to improve the sound by going back and forth to find WHAT a good mouthpiece buzz does on the horn. Then aim for THAT target. Again, do not overthink it.

Some folks buzz a lot, I believe Jay Friedman (also on the Trombone Corner) notes that he buzzes on his 45 minute commute. How much full time is dedicated to buzzing instead of the steering wheel? Dunno, but sounds like a pretty good session.

Reminding me that I need to get a mouthpiece at my desk, lord knows I have enough to set one here.

Cheers,

Andy

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-10-21 11:01 a.m.

My comments refer to my own experience, not how I believe buzzing should be used or a recommendation for anyone.

Freebuzzing for me only strengthens my high-chops. Specifically, it helps me firm up the muscles on the sides of my mouth that form the embouchure. I only do it a minute or so at a time. I think having strong embouchure muscles helps me play high without needing a lot of mouthpiece pressure. If you rely on the mouthpiece to form your embouchure, freebuzzing may not do anything for you.

I have a hard time buzzing medium or low notes. Horse flapping my lips is something else, I don't consider that buzzing.

I used to crack a lot of notes. That was because the note I was buzzing was higher than the note I was trying to play. So mouthpiece buzzing, and then matching that buzz to the horn pitch has been an important exercise for me. Mouthpiece buzzing to me is about 2 things - muscle memory and ear training - and getting those two things to work together.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-10-21 11:48 a.m.

[quote="cmcslide"]When I teach, and I know I'm not the only teacher who uses this method, I may have a student sing a short excerpt from an etude, then buzz that same short bit on the mouthpiece and finally play it on the horn and I do get results. When they buzz, I ask them not to try to slot directly into the pitches, but to slide around from pitch to pitch, not even tonguing, and keep steady air moving. I think that this is what they are getting from the buzzing, the concept of a constant air stream. It is this air stream that helps them improve tone and accuracy, not focusing on a really nice buzz. I only ask them to buzz in small doses (like a four bar excerpt).[/quote]

Another approach one of my teachers uses is starting an etude with just glissing. He says to keep everything even and will stop me if i change something. I think it helps

cmcslide · by **cmcslide** » 2020-10-21 12:00 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="cmcslide" post_id="128324" time="1603288613" user_id="2930">
When I teach, and I know I'm not the only teacher who uses this method, I may have a student sing a short excerpt from an etude, then buzz that same short bit on the mouthpiece and finally play it on the horn and I do get results. When they buzz, I ask them not to try to slot directly into the pitches, but to slide around from pitch to pitch, not even tonguing, and keep steady air moving. I think that this is what they are getting from the buzzing, the concept of a constant air stream. It is this air stream that helps them improve tone and accuracy, not focusing on a really nice buzz. I only ask them to buzz in small doses (like a four bar excerpt).[/quote]

Another approach one of my teachers uses is starting an etude with just glissing. He says to keep everything even and will stop me if i change something. I think it helps
</QUOTE>

Exactly what I ask them to do on the mouthpiece! You could add some resistance to the buzz with a BERP, or just a finger partially closing off the stem of the mouthpiece to make it feel somewhat more like the horn. Keep in mind, these are just tools in the teaching toolbox!

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-10-21 12:52 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="128291" time="1603261982" user_id="7109">

You obviously have a technique that is unsuited to rim or freebuzzing. Not everyone is like that.

Chris[/quote]

In the interest of friendly discussion about the subject, and with no ill intent whatsoever, I'll proceed cautiously. I've written this before and was pooh-poohed, but looking through the studies of the physics of brass I'm sure that most teachers have got it wrong.

<B>

I am sure that there is actually no way to create a buzz or freebuzz without introducing extra resistance into the system</B>, and if you assume that the resistance created by the instrument is the basic state, the "faked" resistance to buzz on stuff that isn't the whole instrument is unhelpful and damaging. Here is why:

1. The sound produced by a brass instrument is a result of the air inside a tube being forced into a sympathetic vibration within that tube. There is a series of points of equilibrium (the harmonic overtone series) where the air column will "slot" and a clear note is produced. So you can change how much you agitate or vibrate or "energize" that air in the tube, but mostly whatever you do will sound bad unless you've hit these "slots" where everything is in equilibrium. Take the resistance (the horn) away, and the lips stop vibrating. Add the horn back on and the pitch starts again. The sound is (or at least should be) from all of the air in the tube vibrating, and not just the sound of the lips in the mouthpiece.

2. In a tube that doesn't change length, like a natural horn, or baroque trumpet, or ... a mouthpiece... the further out of pitch you try to force the sound from these points on the harmonic series, the worse it sounds. This is why trying to lip pitches down in a warm-up (no idea why teachers do that) sounds bad, and the best teachers are always telling their students to play exactly in the center of the pitch, and move the slide to tune. Most students don't know what that means. What they are really saying is to "fix" the length of the tubing first, and to have the lip playing the pitch that is exactly in the center of the point of equilibrium on that fixed length of tubing to get the best sound.

3. Based on the above, the pitch and harmonic series is completely based on the length of the tube, and the level and quality of energy that gets it vibrating. A trombone is like a 9-12 foot tube, and at its full length you can feel that the resistance of the whole system is different. The blow is different in 7th position. How you reach equilibrium and make a beautiful sound in 7th position is very different from 1st position. I think everyone can agree with this. So... What is the length of a mouthpiece? 3 inches? I do not think any human being is capable of playing the actual points of equilibrium on a three inch pipe, and finding the harmonic series. There is hardly any air in it to get vibrating, so it has almost no resistance at all. You would have to move your entire lungs worth of air through the mouthpiece in about one second, and the root of the harmonic series would be like Bb6. So straight away, everything you buzz on a mouthpiece is by its very nature a forced false tone, octaves out of pitch from the harmonic series of the pipe it's buzzed on. Also, just like false tones on the trombone, you must compensate for being so far out of the harmonic series by creating a false point of resistance. It could be that you push your lips together harder than you would of you were playing a trombone, or you put your finger over the hole of the shank, or you REALLY clamp your lips together for free buzzing. But none of that should be happening when you are playing your trombone.

4. If you know #1 above is true, which I think no one can really argue with, and if you know #2 is true, which anyone who has tried to lip false tones or lip a note down a half step can probably agree with, then #3 should logically follow. Mouthpiece buzzing is 100% the practice of false tones on a 3in instrument octaves below its unplayable harmonic series in a way that is completely different to playing the trombone, many hundreds of times different from the difference between the feel of 1st position and 7th. You can try the test if you don't believe it, where you buzz your best middle F and then slowly slide the buzzing mouthpiece into the leadpipe -- it will sound horrible. I have seen one video where a really outstanding player goes from free rim to mouthpiece to horn to try and disprove it, and you can see where he changes his setup for each change.

So, again, that's my friendly and hopefully constructive take on it. There are MANY players who are a thousand times better than me who buzz every day, but I think they'd be 1200 times better than me if they stopped spending time buzzing and unlearning buzzing every time they practiced. The only counterargument that is usually proposed is "no, it actually helps" ... which isn't helpful to anyone. I haven't seen anyone show how it helps. I would love to see something showing what it does to help players improve, and how it doesn't teach them to play with tighter lips. If a teacher teaches "play dead center on the pitch, and if you're out of tune a bit, move the slide but stay centered on it as it changes", I don't know how they can also teach "buzz octaves out of pitch, and keep changing pitches that you can't center on, because the mouthpiece is one length only"
</QUOTE>
Well Harrison, thanks for that detailed exposition of your theory. If what you say was correct in every respect, I would be nonplussed at my ability to buzz a note with my lips and bring the instrument to my face, continuing to buzz and continuing the sound until it becomes a normal note on the instrument of good quality...I can also do this by playing a note and removing the instrument whilst maintaining lip vibration.

Vibration is a perception of rapid changes in air pressure reaching our aural system which is recognized as sound by our brains. On a brass instrument, this vibration or variation of air pressure is created by air passing the lips and being modified by the rapid opening and closing of the lips, caused by muscular resistance to that air column at the lips. Pitch is controlled by muscular contraction at the lips together with variations in the presurisation of the air within the lungs so as to allow air to pass through the lips in such a way as to allow continued vibration.

The vibration thus created is in physical terms massive in comparison to the static air within the instrument and causes the air within the instrument to vibrate. If that vibration is not of the harmonic series favoured by the tube length, it cancels itself and no pure note results but if the vibration is a pitch favoured by the tube, a standing wave is created as the construction of a brass instrument traps most of the energy put into it in order to form a standing wave with only a small part of the input energy escaping the horn function barrier into the air at the bell end.

My lips are the major controller in the system and I can therefore act as I described at the start. Lip buzzing is not bad, it does not lead to poor tonal quality, but it's not for everyone.

Chris

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2020-10-21 1:38 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="128237" time="1603205274" user_id="3697">
This reminds me how much of music pedagogy is just traditions, slogans and anecdotes...

[yada yada yada...][/quote]
If that is really all teaching is about, nobody in their right mind would take a lesson.

Chris
</QUOTE>

If they knew.

But what seven-year-old or teenager or college student, the vast majority of music-lesson-takers, has enough experience to discern this?

They haven't had ten cello teachers by the time they get out of college, enough to make obvious how inconsistent the trade is. They've have had maybe two or three.

They might be five or six years in before they even get to teacher #2

And they are at the age where people mostly do what they are told and accept guidance from authority as valid.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-10-21 1:49 p.m.

My take on buzzing is based on periods of activity playing and long lull periods. If I am actively playing and practicing then buzzing for a period actually helps. If I am not playing much, buzzing is of no help at all.

FWIW, I found that when I am out of shape I need to add resistance (finger on end) to make buzzing work. When I am in shape I don't need the finger. I use buzzing as a gauge of how back in shape I am.

But everybody is different.

I also like Robcat's thoughts.

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2020-10-21 1:51 p.m.

Harrison,

I can understand people being sceptical about techniques that they haven't needed or been able to apply correctly. But somehow to flatly deny other peoples lived experiences, is to assume that we all started from the same point, that is, with a vanilla embouchure. If you do have a natural embouchure, and go through a playing career with no problems, well great.

I guess that you're young, and are enjoying you time in a service band, and may be a tidy player. But don't make the mistake at this early stage of believing that your chops will remain the same, because when changes happen, as they surely will, and you wish to continue at a high level, you'll have to discover in yourself a more open mind that you currently possess.

Bob.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-10-21 1:53 p.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="128238" time="1603206151" user_id="7109">

If that is really all teaching is about, nobody in their right mind would take a lesson.

Chris[/quote]

If they knew.

But what seven-year-old or teenager or college student, the vast majority of music-lesson-takers, has enough experience to discern this?

They haven't had ten cello teachers by the time they get out of college, enough to make obvious how inconsistent the trade is. They've have had maybe two or three.

They might be five or six years in before they even get to teacher #2

And they are at the age where people mostly do what they are told and accept guidance from authority as valid.
</QUOTE>

Teachers....yup, it's a crapshoot.

Chris

Slidemo · by **Slidemo** » 2020-10-21 2:06 p.m.

I keep a copy of my regular large bore mouthpiece and a Warburton "Buzzard" in my car. I buzz Rochut melodies, Hymn tunes, Xmas tunes, along with the radio etc etc..... Such a good use of dead time for me and haven't noticed any negative effects. I wouldn't say it was a substitute for practice but certainly a great addition.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2020-10-21 4:54 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]...

... Pitch is controlled by muscular contraction at the lips together with variations in the presurisation of the air within the lungs so as to allow air to pass through the lips in such a way as to allow continued vibration.

...

My lips are the major controller in the system and I can therefore act as I described at the start. Lip buzzing is not bad, it does not lead to poor tonal quality, but it's not for everyone.

Chris[/quote]

This is what I used to think. But now I find I can buzz a note with the tongue in an "ee" position, then gliss the tongue to an "ah", and the pitch will follow down with what feels to me like no change in lips. And reverse.

Then I find I can gliss the tongue in the same way, but maintain the pitch. I call this a "stationary gliss". In this case I feel a pretty powerful lip contraction counteracting the tongue movement.

I find this phenomenon endlessly fascinating. It makes for many exercise variations.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-10-21 6:26 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Well Harrison, thanks for that detailed exposition of your theory. If what you say was correct in every respect, I would be nonplussed at my ability to buzz a note with my lips and bring the instrument to my face, continuing to buzz and continuing the sound until it becomes a normal note on the instrument of good quality...I can also do this by playing a note and removing the instrument whilst maintaining lip vibration.

Vibration is a perception of rapid changes in air pressure reaching our aural system which is recognized as sound by our brains. On a brass instrument, this vibration or variation of air pressure is created by air passing the lips and being modified by the rapid opening and closing of the lips, caused by muscular resistance to that air column at the lips. Pitch is controlled by muscular contraction at the lips together with variations in the presurisation of the air within the lungs so as to allow air to pass through the lips in such a way as to allow continued vibration.

The vibration thus created is in physical terms massive in comparison to the static air within the instrument and causes the air within the instrument to vibrate. If that vibration is not of the harmonic series favoured by the tube length, it cancels itself and no pure note results but if the vibration is a pitch favoured by the tube, a standing wave is created as the construction of a brass instrument traps most of the energy put into it in order to form a standing wave with only a small part of the input energy escaping the horn function barrier into the air at the bell end.

My lips are the major controller in the system and I can therefore act as I described at the start. Lip buzzing is not bad, it does not lead to poor tonal quality, but it's not for everyone.

Chris[/quote]

Chris, it looks like we are in agreement with what is going on inside the horn and with the chops. That is definitely what I was trying to say, in my own clumsy way.

But, again I would say that your lips really aren't what controls that system -- they are only vibrating as a result of the speed and direction of the air passing through them, and how that air meets the static/already-vibrating air inside the horn. That second bit, of how it interacts with what's already in the horn, is why we get obsessed over finding the right horn, crook, leadpipe, etc. But anyways, the lips don't do or control anything. The air does, as you push it out. The tongue does, as it shapes the direction of that air, and your corners do as it shapes the aperture of the lips.

My hang up is that when you take the horn away, you take that interaction away as well. All the stuff we obsess over gear wise, which we know is important because of how it affects what we need to do with our input, is now gone. So the corners, aperture, tongue etc must compensate to keep the lips buzzing. I think that compensation takes the form of overly tight corners and worse, a tight body core, but ... in the end I guess it doesn't matter. You can be the best of the best and get there while buzzing every day, so like you say it probably isn't detrimental.

I'm pretty much tapped out on my thoughts for this. I would be very interested in seeing videos of pro-buzzing people demonstrating going from free buzzing to mouthpiece buzzing to horn playing with a close-up view of their chops. Those sorts of things are really informative.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-10-21 6:40 p.m.

[quote="Pre59"]Harrison,

I can understand people being sceptical about techniques that they haven't needed or been able to apply correctly. But somehow to flatly deny other peoples lived experiences, is to assume that we all started from the same point, that is, with a vanilla embouchure. If you do have a natural embouchure, and go through a playing career with no problems, well great.

I guess that you're young, and are enjoying you time in a service band, and may be a tidy player. But don't make the mistake at this early stage of believing that your chops will remain the same, because when changes happen, as they surely will, and you wish to continue at a high level, you'll have to discover in yourself a more open mind that you currently possess.

Bob.[/quote]

Some would call me young, but I'm definitely not as young as I'd like to be. I will say that I think my chops already have hit and passed "the big change", but it was a change in my own head and a slight mouthpiece size change. I used to buzz because my teachers told me to buzz. I stopped the day my lessons stopped, so my chop change had nothing to do with buzzing. I've been playing trombone for 22 years now. About 6 years ago, when I was 27, I was getting really bad jaw pain and was just too tense. I was trying to play things that were too difficult, and using a bad approach. All kinds of issues related to mouthpiece size. Ever since I fixed that mouthpiece issue which helped me fix my approach, 6 years ago now, I've felt that playing brass is something I could continue doing and improving at for another forty years or so before I'll have problems. It's been years since I've had jaw pain or worried about range or endurance. I chalk that all up to being very relaxed and letting the horn do it's job. So I'll 100% reject any practice that I feel encourages more tension than is needed to do my job throughout the day.

I don't know what he says about buzzing other than "it is really different from what happens when we play" and "the lips vibrating comes from the interaction of the air inside you hitting the atmosphere inside the trombone" ("unlocking the trombone code", Ian Bousfield) but Ian Bousfield has written a lot about his approach and it helped me out tremendously.

(I don't think "tension free" playing is a thing, fwiw)

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2020-10-22 5:50 a.m.

Harrison, you wrote a good post. Just to reiterate, my issue is with writing off of concepts that have worked for me and others. Rather than stating a view, you could maybe ask about experiences of others, there's more to be gleaned that way. Why not let people make up their own minds?

You've had your embouchure issues along the way as have I. The big difference is that buzzing and buzzing aids have helped me in a tangible ways, decades after I really needed that improvement. Like when I was playing four, two hour "on the face" shows a day for ten weeks at a time, without a day off, in tropical conditions. Ugh..

It's laudable to want to save people from having to suffer the kind of difficulties that you had, but making embouchure changes is always going to be a bit of a gamble, it sounds like your teachers didn't do you any favours, neither did mine, but that how it was then..

Isn't tension all in the mind?

Bob.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-10-22 6:42 a.m.

Freebuzzing does need more lip power than mpc buzzing. Mpc buzzing does need more lip power than playing the horn. When connect the buzz with playing with the horn you do dadept to the horn. All of it can be done with good airflow, and bad airflow, and to much lip compression. So it can be good or bad.

Lot of pro players buzz, lots of pro player don´t buzz. If you don´t know what to do, why not just test to buzz, or not to buzz if you are a buzzer? In the end it is up to you to decide.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-10-22 6:59 a.m.

Could be Harrison means 'ten shun !!!!

Chris

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-10-22 7:20 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Could be Harrison means 'ten shun !!!!

Chris[/quote]

That one definitively IS all in the mind!

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2020-10-22 9:22 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="128423" time="1603364395" user_id="7109">
Could be Harrison means 'ten shun !!!!

Chris[/quote]

That one definitively IS all in the mind!
</QUOTE>

I've had 5 years 228 days worth of that as well, according to my discharge book..

Bob.

StevenHolloway · by **StevenHolloway** » 2020-10-22 11:14 a.m.

I see buzzing like medicine. The difference between medicine and poison is the dose. It’s also no coincidence that all of the players I want to sound like buzz the mouthpiece.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2020-10-22 4:14 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]

This is what I used to think. But now I find I can buzz a note with the tongue in an "ee" position, then gliss the tongue to an "ah", and the pitch will follow down with what feels to me like no change in lips. And reverse.

Then I find I can gliss the tongue in the same way, but maintain the pitch. I call this a "stationary gliss". In this case I feel a pretty powerful lip contraction counteracting the tongue movement.

I find this phenomenon endlessly fascinating. It makes for many exercise variations.[/quote]

And, you can tongue gliss in one direction and lip gliss in the other, and maintain a steady tone.

(just like you can slide vibrato and exactly cancel it with lip vibrato. I don't know of any reason you'd want to but it seems perfectly possible.)

Seriously, what range is your tongue gliss workable in, or easy in?

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-10-22 8:18 p.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]Freebuzzing does need more lip power than mpc buzzing. Mpc buzzing does need more lip power than playing the horn. When connect the buzz with playing with the horn you do dadept to the horn. All of it can be done with good airflow, and bad airflow, and to much lip compression. So it can be good or bad.

Lot of pro players buzz, lots of pro player don´t buzz. If you don´t know what to do, why not just test to buzz, or not to buzz if you are a buzzer? In the end it is up to you to decide.[/quote]

I agree. Use it if it helps, but most important is letting the ears guide you to a good sound. Then you need the whole system to be there, lips, mouthpiece, instrument and ears. I can freebuzz and mouthpiece buzz but I do not practice these skills much. I have recently found other things help my emboushure, odd things like playing a french horn mouthpiece and the Wycliffe Gordon crossover mouthpiece. Strange things like that can help more than years of practice on the same same. To me the variation and different approaches helps. I got a better register on trombone and better sound up there on trombone. I did not expect it to happen. I just wanted to do something else during pandemic. I also got better on french horn.

/Tom

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2020-10-23 8:00 a.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="baileyman" post_id="128375" time="1603313665" user_id="160">

This is what I used to think. But now I find I can buzz a note with the tongue in an "ee" position, then gliss the tongue to an "ah", and the pitch will follow down with what feels to me like no change in lips. And reverse.

Then I find I can gliss the tongue in the same way, but maintain the pitch. I call this a "stationary gliss". In this case I feel a pretty powerful lip contraction counteracting the tongue movement.

I find this phenomenon endlessly fascinating. It makes for many exercise variations.[/quote]

And, you can tongue gliss in one direction and lip gliss in the other, and maintain a steady tone.

(just like you can slide vibrato and exactly cancel it with lip vibrato. I don't know of any reason you'd want to but it seems perfectly possible.)

Seriously, what range is your tongue gliss workable in, or easy in?
</QUOTE>

Exactly. That's the "stationary gliss". I suppose that powerful contraction is a "lip gliss". (And Urbie used to do a combined vibrato, but not to cancel, rather to work in different warble frequencies. Nuts.)

I started out doing octave tongue movements, but then i thought that's a bit much, so lately I have been doing fourths. I warm up with a buzz "ee", fourthwise down to "ah", then back to "ee", then a stationary gliss. Then down a half step, etc, then up a half step till it doesn't work any more.

A favorite exercise right now is to buzz a middle note in "ee", get on the horn, tongue gliss down a fourth to "ah", stationary gliss to "ee", then down a fourth and repeat to the bottom of the horn. Then I repeat up a half step until the top of the horn.

And I have been working my flexies with different vowels. So, a 3 4 partial trill with metronome in quarters going slowly "ee" to "ah" or reverse, 3 to 4 or 4 to 3, then quarter triplets, eighths, triplets, sixteenths, however far the tempo of the day will allow, down a position and reverse everything, down a position reverse again, etc. It's interesting how the different vowels behave. I had thought a good trill needed "ee" but they all work, just a little differently.

Basically I'm trying to develop an independence between "ee-ah" tongue tuning and chop tension tuning, the way pianists work for hand and finger independence. It just seems like it should be useful. And I'm trying to get my high buzz into the piece and then down the horn, which is a challenge.

The range answer is it works everywhere until the buzz quits. I have never been able to get a decent double pedal A (on what I call zero partial), but if I'm on the .5 partial C for instance in "ee" I will do the fourthwise tongue motion aiming for double pedal G, and something happens, but it's not really a note. The vibration feels about right, though. Higher up the fourthwise motion feels smaller. And early on it was like magic to buzz a fairly high note, tongue gliss down, and then tongue gliss BACK UP WITHOUT EFFORT! Holy cow!

VJOFan · by **VJOFan** » 2020-10-27 2:23 p.m.

Tagging on a pet peeve of these discussions: weight lifting (used as a buzzing analogy by both the pro and con camps), for a large number of those who do it, is not about hypertrophy (bulking up). It is about improving neuromuscular coordination and so really about gaining better control over the body. Strengthening happens but without significant added bulk. If buzzing has anything to do with weightlifting, it is likely the improvement of coordinated motion facilitated by trained muscles.

So it makes sense that not everyone needs that kind of training or that there is more than one way to attain the same result: stimulus => response. You find the stimulus that creates the desired response for you.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2020-10-27 10:49 p.m.

Perhaps there are benefits to achieve from freebuzzing and mouthpiece buzzing that are (a) difficult to achieve when playing the instrument alone, and (b) outweigh any perceived disadvantages.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2020-10-28 9:25 a.m.

[quote="VJOFan"]Tagging on a pet peeve of these discussions: weight lifting (used as a buzzing analogy by both the pro and con camps), for a large number of those who do it, is not about hypertrophy (bulking up). It is about improving neuromuscular coordination and so really about gaining better control over the body. ...[/quote]

Your idea seems exactly right to me. It's mostly to achieve control. Perhaps it is more like learning to clean a small dumbell while standing on one foot.

[quote="Kbiggs"]Perhaps there are benefits to achieve from freebuzzing and mouthpiece buzzing that are (a) difficult to achieve when playing the instrument alone, and (b) outweigh any perceived disadvantages.[/quote]

I think so. One clear example for me, maybe not others, though, is that there has always been a range starting about 5th or 6th partial where the chops want to begin to bunch in for higher notes. That's okay for a few partials, but eventually friction with the rim makes further bunching impossible. Reducing pressure and almost lifting off allows the bunch to continue. And freebuzz presents no obstacle at all. Negotiating this range in freebuzz informs the chops with a new feel that may apply with the piece. That's the idea anyway.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-11-05 2:30 a.m.

<YOUTUBE id="Ct2uGgySOGI">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/Ct2uGgySOGI</YOUTUBE>

Another "no" from one of the greatest brass musicians who has ever lived. Great video about dealing with the aftermath of too much tension, ie focal dystonia. Around 3:45, Phil Smith gets into it.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-11-05 4:25 a.m.

I had a discussion with Philip, but didn't push it....he was not comfortable when I demonstrated buzzing free and bringing the trombone to the lips with an unbroken sound and removing it, again without a break in sound. That doesn't chime with his view. As I say, I didn't push it and let the subject go....there were dozens of people there and it was not the place or time. Philip is one of kindest, most humble, honest and inspiring people on the planet, and I would hate to offend him.

To be honest, I couldn't care less if people freebuzz or don't freebuzz.... life's too short and I have more important things on my agenda.

Chris

SimmonsTrombone · by **SimmonsTrombone** » 2020-11-05 6:29 a.m.

We know there are people with fast twitch muscles, and others with slow twitch. Could this muscle difference apply to embouchures and effect the success or failure of buzzing?

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2020-11-05 5:06 p.m.

[quote="SimmonsTrombone"]We know there are people with fast twitch muscles, and others with slow twitch. Could this muscle difference apply to embouchures and effect the success or failure of buzzing?[/quote]

I remember that 25-30 years ago, the idea of “fast vs. slow twitch” muscles was discussed A LOT regarding sports, esp. running and track and field. Biopsies of leg muscles seemed to indicate a difference in muscular contraction when stimulated electrically with the same frequency. The conclusion at the time was that people with “slow twitch” muscles were probably better at long, slow distances vs. people with “fast twitch” muscles who were probably better at shorter distances, e.g., sprints, such as nothing greater than, say, 500 km.

However, I believe—it’s been 25-30 years—that nothing really came of it. Not many athletes were willing to undergo a biopsy to analyze their muscle tissue for the sake of a theory. I’m not aware of any studies to show that there really was a difference in performance of fast vs. slow twitch muscles. I don’t think they found any differences in fast vs. slow twitch muscles anywhere in the body other in than the large muscle groups like the legs and arms, and especially in the face.

At any rate, what difference would it make? If we were to find that one professional trumpet player had slow twitch muscles while a professional tuba player had fast twitch muscles, wouldn’t that make this a difference without a distinction?

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-11-05 5:36 p.m.

[quote="SimmonsTrombone"]We know there are people with fast twitch muscles, and others with slow twitch. Could this muscle difference apply to embouchures and effect the success or failure of buzzing?[/quote]

Do you think fast/slow twitch muscle development would make you better at fine motor control? Brass playing embouchure control is more akin to holding chopsticks than explosive power off the blocks or endurance running through a marathon.

It's literally all in our heads (and the nervous system connections).

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-11-05 6:11 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]I had a discussion with Philip, but didn't push it....he was not comfortable when I demonstrated buzzing free and bringing the trombone to the lips with an unbroken sound and removing it, again without a break in sound. That doesn't chime with his view. As I say, I didn't push it and let the subject go....there were dozens of people there and it was not the place or time. Philip is one of kindest, most humble, honest and inspiring people on the planet, and I would hate to offend him.

To be honest, I couldn't care less if people freebuzz or don't freebuzz.... life's too short and I have more important things on my agenda.

Chris[/quote]

He seems like a very kindhearted person, and there is no denying his sound on his C trumpet. My god.

BTW, Chris, were you able to ask Ian about his thoughts? Last I heard he still advised his students to buzz for certain things but he seems on the fence about it in his writing.

Obviously, no one is going to change their opinion completely based on this discussion, but I think it's interesting. Ian is another musician whose playing and teaching I deeply respect, and his ideas are often curve balls that fascinate me. For example, forming the embouchure completely separate from the mouthpiece placement ("give me any mouthpiece and I can play it") and playing dry on the face ("this is why I never have a mark on my lips or get chapped lips"). It's all interesting.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-11-05 6:39 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="129755" time="1604568310" user_id="7109">
I had a discussion with Philip, but didn't push it....he was not comfortable when I demonstrated buzzing free and bringing the trombone to the lips with an unbroken sound and removing it, again without a break in sound. That doesn't chime with his view. As I say, I didn't push it and let the subject go....there were dozens of people there and it was not the place or time. Philip is one of kindest, most humble, honest and inspiring people on the planet, and I would hate to offend him.

To be honest, I couldn't care less if people freebuzz or don't freebuzz.... life's too short and I have more important things on my agenda.

Chris[/quote]

He seems like a very kindhearted person, and there is no denying his sound on his C trumpet. My god.

BTW, Chris, were you able to ask Ian about his thoughts? Last I heard he still advised his students to buzz for certain things but he seems on the fence about it in his writing.

Obviously, no one is going to change their opinion completely based on this discussion, but I think it's interesting. Ian is another musician whose playing and teaching I deeply respect, and his ideas are often curve balls that fascinate me. For example, forming the embouchure completely separate from the mouthpiece placement ("give me any mouthpiece and I can play it") and playing dry on the face ("this is why I never have a mark on my lips or get chapped lips"). It's all interesting.
</QUOTE>

Never discussed it with Ian...to be honest, when we meet, conversation is mostly social and talking about students.

Chris

VJOFan · by **VJOFan** » 2020-11-06 1:45 p.m.

[quote="SimmonsTrombone"]We know there are people with fast twitch muscles, and others with slow twitch. Could this muscle difference apply to embouchures and effect the success or failure of buzzing?[/quote]

I've become a running nerd in the last few years so have read a lot on this topic.

The two types of fibers are in every person. It does seem some people have a bit more of one type than another. Because the fiber types are not immutable (they can adapt to be more like each other with training) it is unclear whether the fact that most sprinters have more fast twitch fibers and most distance runners have more slow twitch fibers is a predetermination of aptitude or is a result of training.

In terms of embouchure the known facts about muscle fiber types suggest this to me. Slow twitch fibers are better at enduring repetitive contractions and ongoing contractions. So a make up of predominantly slow twitch fibers may lead to more endurance. However, the fast twitch fibers of the embouchure would be recruited during taxing playing and would adapt to behave more like slow twitch over time.

So I'm saying, it probably doesn't matter at all. :roll:

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-11-06 4:11 p.m.

That's pretty much my understanding and how I look at it. However, playing, especially when it comes to endurance, is really more of an isometric exercise (as you say ongoing contractions), not repetitive contractions.

"Strength" comes in two forms, largely due to the two different fiber types. As you say, partly aptitude and partly training. We have to practice both ways.

Basbasun · 2020-11-09 7:20 a.m.

Delited

JakeRoberts69 · by **JakeRoberts69** » 2020-11-14 9:47 p.m.

<YOUTUBE id="ClPnrPBnmpc" t="37">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClPnrPBnmpc&t=37s</YOUTUBE>

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-11-15 2:41 p.m.

[quote="JakeRoberts69"]<YOUTUBE id="ClPnrPBnmpc" t="37">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClPnrPBnmpc&t=37s</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

A lot of testaments there of mouthpiece buzzing. Very interesting video. Thanks!

/Tom

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-11-15 3:17 p.m.

I started buzzing in uni when my teacher, a Chicago-school guy, recommended it. Years later, at an info-masterclass, Ian Bousfield supported it. I recall thinking that buzzing seemed to be something that should be easy to do and I was not able to do it very well. I started buzzing, especially during my commute, and I think it was useful. Now, 25 years later, I tend to buzz for a few minutes as part of my warmup. Sort of like light stretching before a run (probably a good analogy, given there is controversy about the efficacy of stretching before running). If it works for you, go for it.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-11-16 6:48 a.m.

"If it works for you, go for it."

Yes. And if it doesn´t let it be.

From now and on I will play on my mpc ov the bass trombone for a couple of minutes, I will do that for a month. Then I have something to evaluete. I will be back on this thread latter.

Basbasun · 2020-11-16 12:10 p.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]There are some references to the lenght of pipes and acoustics. Here is a good site if you are interseted in the stuff.

I am still because of experiments, lesson and reading for many years. There are much more info on the neet for some who are interested. This does not have much to do with the buzzing issue though, and since most of you are not interseted in the acoustic of wind instrument, you shoudl not feel obliged to study that.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassa ... html#bells">https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html#bells</LINK_TEXT>

To free buzz you do need more resistance than mpc buzzing, mpc buzz need more resistance than horn blowing. That I believe we are all agred on? Do we use different muscles doing those three buzzings? I do not believe so, the resistance can be adjusted so easily that many players do not even notice, many do notice the differenc and some shy away from buzzing, others take advantage of the difference. If you compress the lips more the more resistance you get, if you blow harder the more resistance you get. I believe many fine players can do adjust to the different resistance very good.

I think that if you are not sure about the way you do, buzz or not buzz, try for some time, a month maybe, to do the opposite, Does it thing go better or worse? There you are.[/quote]

AndrewG · by **AndrewG** » 2020-11-16 1:45 p.m.

High intensity interval training is different than running a marathon. Plyometric jump squats are different than an olympic snatch. Romanian deadlifts are different than conventional deadlifts. Athletes crosstrain all the time, and are made better by it.

I don't see how mouthpiece buzzing is any different. Mouthpiece buzzing made me stronger, gave me a clearer sound, and better overall control. It works for me. If you've given it a chance and it didn't help, don't do it . If you haven't, maybe give it a shot. It's unlikely to hurt anything.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-11-17 4:55 a.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]<QUOTE author="Basbasun" post_id="130062" time="1604924458" user_id="196">
There are some references to the lenght of pipes and acoustics. Here is a good site if you are interseted in the stuff.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassa ... html#bells">https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html#bells</LINK_TEXT>

To free buzz you do need more resistance than in mpc buzzing, mpc buzz need more resistance than horn blowing. That I believe we are all agred on? Do we use different muscles doing those three buzzings? I do not believe so, the resistance can be adjusted so easily that many players do not even notice, many do notice the differenc and some shy away from buzzing, others take advantage of the difference. If you compress the lips more the more resistance you get, if you blow harder the more resistance you get. I believe many fine players can do adjust to the different resistance very good.

I think that if you are not sure about the way you do, buzz or not buzz, try for some time, a month maybe, to do the opposite, Does it thing go better or worse? There you are.[/quote]
</QUOTE>

OneInTuneGuy · by **OneInTuneGuy** » 2022-06-13 7:36 p.m.

I wonder if anyone has ever heard of Charlie Vernon, Ed Kleinhammer, Frank Crisafulli, or Arnold Jacobs? All of my teachers buzzed on their mouthpieces. But I think that the phrase 'buzzing on the mouthpiece' is a bit of a misnomer. In my opinion, attempting to buzz or cause the mouthpiece to vibrate is misdirection of effort. Soft muscle tissue buzzing against a metal rim is a losing proposition, although buzzing inside the ring will produce an easy buzz and be quite stress and tension free. Charlie Vernon (as I learned from one of his proteges) sought the best sound in the world, and he handily has one of the finest sounds there is. Charlie buzzes minimum 30 minutes a day before he even touches the horn. Yet, there are other great players like Christian Lindberg who do not advocate mouthpiece buzzing? People can sound great whether they buzz or not. To me, the point is: if it works for you - do it. But highly important to buzz correctly, and to focus not on the buzz, but the finest sound imaginable in your mind. There need be no push or pull here on the subject. I've played in some very fine orchestras, taught 42 years, and have sent an unbroken string of students to Indiana U. since 1996. All of my students buzzed - but even so, it is a personal decision, and I respect anyone who chooses not to. It's simply a choice, and whether one does or not, I respect whatever works for the individual.

musicofnote · 2022-06-17 9:53 a.m.

content deleted by author

Clovenhoof81 · by **Clovenhoof81** » 2022-07-12 2:48 p.m.

I'm a beginner and through the day I will casually pick up my horn and practice with the slide locked <EMOJI seq="1f512" tseq="1f512">🔒</EMOJI> I have read that the 4th partial is fourteen cents flat and the 6th partial thirty-one cents flat. Is this a bad habit?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2022-07-12 3:00 p.m.

Different trombones will have different pitch tendencies for the partials. A different brand instrument may be off in different directions.

Practicing only in 1st position? Could be OK. Depends on what you are trying to do. If you are trying to blend with other instruments or drones, playing with the slide locked may make it difficult to tune the interval between what you are playing and the drone. Just want to do flexibilities and long tones? Fine. Probably not too many melodies that you can play only in 1st position, though. And certainly no scales.

StephenBrown · by **StephenBrown** » 2022-07-13 1:38 a.m.

I try to buzz a little every day, but I notice if I go too long or try to perfect my buzz it become detrimental to the exercise and I do more harm than good.

Clovenhoof81 · by **Clovenhoof81** » 2022-07-13 11:54 a.m.

Judging from the mixed consensus from varying skill levels; I have been doing mpc. warm ups for about 90 seconds when I first wake up. Long tone sirens, glissando, and staccato.

ssking2b · by **ssking2b** » 2022-07-13 2:54 p.m.

None of my teachers advocated mouthpiece buzzing other than momentarily to warm up. To a man they all believe it left you with bad habits, since it was not relevant to the way we produce and use air stream when we play.

My teachers were Bernie Schneider (St Louis Symphony), Tom Streeter (Airmen of Note), Louis Van Haney (NY Philharmonic), and Buddy Baker (Stan Kenton).

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2022-07-13 5:37 p.m.

So much of this discussion is personal and subjective. In another thread somewhere, someone bemoaned that a lot of ideas here proposed here are been met with “Well, we don’t have the data because no one has done a study.” True, but not helpful. Playing and teaching are arts, not sciences. And results are not always subject to scientific scrutiny.

Some teachers are adamant one way or the other about mouthpiece and free-buzzing. I don’t believe that teaching and playing are black-or-white endeavours. Students are learning, and may not know what works for them, especially beginners (who often are enticed by “I saw this thing on the internet…”). More advanced students, and adult accomplished players, often have ideas and habits they’ve reinforced over time, some of which be unhelpful. A skilled, non-judgmental teacher who is willing to work with the student rather than simply say, “Do this!” can help the student recognize bad habits and replace them with helpful habits.

If the teacher is willing to admit fallibility, then suggesting an experiment can help for that student. Even saying, “This worked for me, let’s try it on you” can help motivate students. If that doesn’t work, then go to plan B.

Having said all that, I do mouthpiece and free-buzzing. Doug Elliott got me started on free-buzzing, so I’m starting to do more of it. I’ve used mouthpiece buzzing a lot in the past, and had some extended periods when that was my primary source of practice and keeping in shape, usually in the car with a BERP, or a ShortCut (Jo-Ral?) adapted with a large shank leadpipe. I still buzz a bit before I practice, both free-buzzing and with the mouthpiece. It works—for me.

hveene · by **hveene** » 2024-03-04 10:56 a.m.

Personally I don't like buzzing at all. The band I play with uses it often to get the breathing going, and I understand that. But for me the pressure from playing the instrument is too much different from just the mouthpiece. It makes me feel uncomfortable. So bsically I refuse to use buzzing. I do use it for about 10 seconds to get the mouthpiece warm and get enough blood and oxygen in the lips. But actaully playing exercises just on the mouthpiee. That makes me sound and play very dull.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-03-04 12:54 p.m.

A bit first thing, free and/or mpc, to get blood flowing or relieve tightness. Just a few minutes though. Occasionally on the way to a gig/rehearsal. Maybe a bit of freebuzzing when walking the dog. I also noted DE’s recent comment about forming an embouchure and blowing but not buzzing.

Can’t see the point of working out difficult passages on the

mouthpiece or doing extensive mouthpiece calisthenics.

Olofson · by **Olofson** » 2024-03-05 5:43 a.m.

Yes if you get benefitsfrom it. No if you does not.

chouston3 · by **chouston3** » 2024-03-06 10:32 p.m.

This is the juiciest current topic on the forum apart from the beans right now.

I have had a mixed experience with buzzing. Sometimes I feel like it helps. Often, I really do not feel like it does much of anything.

I suspect the great players who swear by it are doing something that I am not. I suspect that I buzz one way and play a different way. If I could buzz with the same mechanics that I play, I think it would work better for me.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-03-07 12:25 p.m.

I confess, I'm a buzzer.

I do a little lip stretching and free buzzing to start. I do mouthpiece buzzing in my car on the way to rehearsals/gigs, and I'll buzz for 1 minute or less as part of my warmup.

Jeff Reynolds gave me a tube with a partial stopper in it that fits onto my mouthpiece shank and supposedly simulates the back pressure of playing, and I have a mouthpiece in my car with that contraption attached, and I'll buzz on it as I drive. Often just warmup stuff, but sometimes I'll buzz along with music I'm listening to.

I'm a buzzer, but it's just for getting the chops going when cold and to fend off boredom in my (self-driving, so I'm not a danger) car.

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-03-07 1:32 p.m.

Jeff Reynolds advocates using 6 or 8 inches of large aquarium hose on the mouthpiece, not enough to impose harmonics, with a choke or constriction in the far end to mimic the impedance the instrument would add. He described this as the first part of his warm-up while driving to a rehearsal or performance.

https://cherryclassics.com/products/2556

BUZZING WITH MOUTHPIECE (AND TUBE EXTENSION)

Trumpet players need not use a tube extension, as their bore size is small enough to

cause sufficient backpressure. For horn, trombone, euphonium and tuba players, it’s best

to fit your mouthpiece with a plastic hose, maybe with a reducer hose inside, to create a

smaller bore size than your mouthpiece bore. Horn players can use a 5/16 inch or 3/8

inch plastic hose about 3 inches long. Trombonists can use ½” or 7/16 inch hose with a

reducer inside, about 4 inches long, to make the bore at some point smaller than the bore

on your mouthpiece. With tubes, shorter is better. Why? Longer tubes create their own

overtone series, which you must muscle around. With this new fixture, buzz some music.

What music? I recommend music of any kind that is medium to low register for your

instrument, mostly slurred, always pianissimo up to only mezzo piano and not more than

three minutes at a time. For decades I “buzzed” with the tube in the car on the way to

Philharmonic rehearsals. The idea is make your buzzing more focused and tone hotter,

by increasing the vibrating potential of your embouchure. What happens if you buzz

loudly? Your tone gets stiff and coarse, with a brackish quality. What happens if you

don’t use a tube extension at all? Your embouchure tends to sphincter towards the center

of your aperture to find support against the lack of backpressure on the air column. You

wind up with muscle bound chops that are difficult to move easily or supply any kind of

acceptable tone.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-03-07 2:28 p.m.

Yup, that's exactly the contraption he gave me. :)

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-03-07 2:38 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]Yup, that's exactly the contraption he gave me. :)[/quote]

There was a difference of opinion between JR and Sauer, the latter recommending 9” of PVC irrigation pipe with a hole drilled in one side about one third along the length of pipe. Kind of an octave key. Didn’t Sauer call his device a Focused Air Resistance Trainer? FART for short. Too much time on their hands counting bars rest.

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mouthpiece buzzing Yes or No