Most underrated horns

Hobart · by **Hobart** » 2020-11-01 2:16 a.m.

Ok so, I've seen other people make threads about what's really good and stuff, I figure this would be kind of original.

What are some of the most underrated horns you guys know about? Like, things from a manufacturer you'd have no idea why they play that good from them, or student horns that arbitrarily play at a professional level for some reason?

I have no purpose behind making this, I just find it really interesting.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-11-01 4:12 a.m.

1960's Martin Imperial tenor. Warm, smooth, slotted....a joy to play.

Chris

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2020-11-01 4:24 a.m.

Benge 170 freelance ...fantastic .500 bore horn

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2020-11-01 5:15 a.m.

Yamaha 321 bass trombone

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-11-01 5:16 a.m.

[quote="Vegasbound"]Benge 170 freelance ...fantastic .500 bore horn[/quote]

Would that be a King 2B+ by another name ?

Chris

Fidbone · by **Fidbone** » 2020-11-01 5:40 a.m.

Inderbinen.

Hans Kromat.

Laetsczh.

Kühnl & Hoyer

All make fantastic trombones in lil ol Europe :good:

bigbandbone · by **bigbandbone** » 2020-11-01 6:28 a.m.

1954 Conn 20H Conquest! Everybody thinks this was a student horn. And at some point it did become the Director. But the 1953,54,55 20H's were 4H's with a male/male tuning slide and cheaper to make bracing. Mine is the best small bore I've ever played. And like all .485 bore Conns it plays bigger tha it should!

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-11-01 7:14 a.m.

I've played plenty of overrated horns, but no underrated ones.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-11-01 7:32 a.m.

Wessex 4501 Urbie copy. I was going to sell mine, but I've changed my mind. Its got a big fat sound, great slide, attractive instrument. This is a horn id take anywhere I don't need a trigger.

stewbones43 · by **stewbones43** » 2020-11-01 8:28 a.m.

Henri Selmer, Paris models:-

23,

23 Special,

K Modified,

Bolero,

Largo,

Basse

All from 1950s onwards

Besson 10-10, '50s-60s.

If you want a new small bore horn:-

John Packer JP230 Rath

Cheers

Stewbones

walldaja · by **walldaja** » 2020-11-01 9:11 a.m.

Besson 10-10 from the 60s--I miss mine!

Courtois AC-260 / 280 horns, great slides and great core.

Yamaha 321 / 421G, another great sounding / playing horn.

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2020-11-01 10:43 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="Vegasbound" post_id="129285" time="1604222653" user_id="7093">
Benge 170 freelance ...fantastic .500 bore horn[/quote]

Would that be a King 2B+ by another name ?

Chris
</QUOTE>

No really, the bell and throat are more like the 3b

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-11-01 11:16 a.m.

[quote="Vegasbound"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="129290" time="1604225769" user_id="7109">

Would that be a King 2B+ by another name ?

Chris[/quote]

No really, the bell and throat are more like the 3b
</QUOTE>
Yes the Bell is 8" and the slide is .500. It's like a 2b+ with 8" bell. Like the other Benge they are very underrated. I have all of them of course. 170 Freelance, 175, 175f, 190C and 290.

Other strange horns nobody knows of that play great is a American .500 stencil from the 50-ies called "COMMODORE". I think It is a Martin made with the name "Commodore". A Swedish .500 trombone called "Euphony" that probably will be impossible to sell. I bought it very cheap and it will never be valued for anything because they are so rare. I have only seen this one. I heard they made them in their shop in Stockholm 1950-74 but very few were made compared to Bachs or Conns or even William's.

About all vintage single valved basses are underrated.

/Tom

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2020-11-01 12:22 p.m.

Blessing B-88.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2020-11-01 12:34 p.m.

I agree with dukesboneman Yamaha YBL321 as good as the Conns they copied and better than teh horns Yamaha replaced them with (never understood that). The Benge theme has its merits too and I always thought many people underatted the Kanstul horns too... Doug

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-11-01 12:46 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]I've played plenty of overrated horns, but no underrated ones.[/quote]

:clever:

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2020-11-01 1:21 p.m.

The Conn 16E mellophonium, underrated by most everyone except Ray Starling, Gene Roland, and Stan Kenton.

Oh, we were talking about trombones???

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-11-01 1:28 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]The Conn 16E mellophonium, underrated by most everyone except Ray Starling, Gene Roland, and Stan Kenton.

Oh, we were talking about trombones???[/quote]

I've thought of getting one of those, but realise it is absolutely no place where I could play such a horn ever over here. Oh, yes at home with windows closed of course.:-)

/ Tom

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2020-11-01 1:33 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]I've thought of getting one of those, but realise there are absolutely no place where I could play such a horn over here. Oh, yes at home with windows closed of course.[/quote]

There's not really a place for them anywhere. :pant: You have to make your own!

The nice thing about them is, since nobody wants them, you can buy them for absolutely dirt cheap all day long and still get your money's worth even if you only play it around the house. I got mine for $100 on eBay, and it's paid for itself many times over.

Mamaposaune · by **Mamaposaune** » 2020-11-01 7:01 p.m.

1950's King Cleveland.

JLivi · by **JLivi** » 2020-11-01 9:06 p.m.

I’m impressed with Flugabones (marching trombone)

I specifically have an Olds but I’ve played the Blessing and Reynolds. I have found a way to incorporate it into gigs (when they existed) and teaching lessons. It’s been great!

Driswood · by **Driswood** » 2020-11-02 7:53 a.m.

Yamaha YSL354 - student model that can sing!!!!

lewbone92 · by **lewbone92** » 2020-11-02 6:49 p.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]Blessing B-88.[/quote]
Seconded this, LOL. I recently acquired a B-88 (well, a B-88O with the copper bell), even though I haven’t played it too much just yet.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2020-11-04 6:51 a.m.

[quote="DougHulme"]I agree with dukesboneman Yamaha YBL321 as good as the Conns they copied and better than teh horns Yamaha replaced them with (never understood that). The Benge theme has its merits too and I always thought many people underatted the Kanstul horns too... Doug[/quote]
Yes! The 321 is a fantastic horn, the best Yamaha ever made. The Benge horns are good horns that is really King horns made more modern. The kanstul horns are great, a lttle thin, but that can be good too.

Macbone1 · by **Macbone1** » 2020-12-02 7:08 a.m.

Most any Besson except the 2-10 which was a dog. Great British craftsmanship though they tend to be heavy. Huge sound on all models both high and low.

Also just about impossible to sell in the US because nobody knows the brand. Once you buy one you've got it for life.

Trav1s · by **Trav1s** » 2020-12-02 9:16 a.m.

The three that come to mind are:

Besson 8-10 - The lacquered version I had was from the mid 50's and that horn was a player. Great upper range and yet a nice full sound across the full range.

Kanstul 750 - Of all the horns I owned and sold, it is probably the one miss the most. There was just something about it that was just fun to play. Big full sound and partials were right on for me. Added a Faxx 6.5AL mouthpiece for a great all around horn.

Conn 24H - A paint peeler or laser beam as some have suggested but I have found this to be a really fun horn. Once I picked up a DE mouthpiece combo (LT100/C+/D2) that fit the horn I knew hit the jackpot and have a real keeper. Soaring upper range with a nice full sound all over. By no means a .500" horn but holds its own.

deanmccarty · by **deanmccarty** » 2020-12-06 7:56 a.m.

The most underrated horn I’ve ever played was the trombone.

<EMOJI seq="1f60e" tseq="1f60e">😎</EMOJI>

djkennedy · by **djkennedy** » 2020-12-06 7:48 p.m.

Benge Freelance 170

Basically a Gold brass 3B w straight instead of curved bell brace

Slide brass outers(Same as 100h) in 500 bore

Engraving pattern variations one has engraved inside the flare

Jim Pugh wore the finish off one in Steely Dan

2 here in studio

djkennedy · by **djkennedy** » 2020-12-06 7:53 p.m.

Yamaha 321 also 322(yellow brass flare))

Great ez players.

Some are plagued w bad inner plating

Had two re tubed one had Bach trigger

Fantastic with Bach 2 mpc !!!!!!

There are several here needing tlc

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2020-12-06 9:03 p.m.

The old "American baritones" from King, Holton, Olds, etc (smallish euphoniums often with bell front and front action valves) are nowhere near as bad as their reputation. Would I use one in place of a good British Besson? No, probably not, but they are still decent instruments. They're more or less the appropriate sound for a lot of wind band literature, since that's what many composers would have been familiar with when they were writing.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2020-12-06 9:28 p.m.

If I could have an American baritone, I'd like to have a Conn 25I (the four-valve raincatcher version with the main-slide tuning mechanism). Those are sweet horns.

If I recall correctly they have a Euro shank, so I'd have to take care of that.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2020-12-06 9:50 p.m.

Oh for sure, that Connstelation with the main tuning trigger is miles better than the Yamaha 321. They pop up for pretty cheap sometimes too.

modelerdc · by **modelerdc** » 2020-12-07 12:55 a.m.

Here's another vote for the Benge 170, really nice playing horn. I also like the YBL 421G, have one and would love to get a double trigger set up for it. Flugabones are also nice and seem to play better than they should, better than most bass trumpets or valve trombones! Current Conn 62H, independent or not, doesn't get much love, it suffers in comparison to great vintage Conns, but it's not a bad horn at all. And of course the 62HG is really great!

Cotboneman · by **Cotboneman** » 2020-12-16 4:00 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]The old "American baritones" from King, Holton, Olds, etc (smallish euphoniums often with bell front and front action valves) are nowhere near as bad as their reputation. Would I use one in place of a good British Besson? No, probably not, but they are still decent instruments. They're more or less the appropriate sound for a lot of wind band literature, since that's what many composers would have been familiar with when they were writing.[/quote]

I'd concur on the those bell front baritones. I was introduced to low brass on an Olds baritone in the Chicago Public Schools in 1971 and fondly remember how easy it was to make a great sound on the instrument. I don't doubt if you found one today that didn't leak it would still be very capable.

modelerdc · by **modelerdc** » 2020-12-16 5:23 p.m.

Here's another vote for the older bell front baritones. As a dual use instrument they worked very well for both marching and concert band. Not all schools can afford to have a set of marching baritones in addition to concert euphoniums. I thought it was a big step backwards for marching bands to forgo traditional Sousas, bell front baritones, and/or slide trombones and adopt core style instruments! Another case of people hearing with their eyes.

Vegastokc · by **Vegastokc** » 2020-12-17 9:26 a.m.

[quote="Cotboneman"]I'd concur on the those bell front baritones. I was introduced to low brass on an Olds baritone in the Chicago Public Schools in 1971 and fondly remember how easy it was to make a great sound on the instrument. I don't doubt if you found one today that didn't leak it would still be very capable.[/quote]

I will concur with your concur. I picked up a 1959 front bell 3 valve Olds Ambass. last year from a music store going out of business. It was part of their rental fleet so it looks like it may have fallen off a school bus a few times.

However, they kept the repairs up and despite some emergency-looking solders, I count myself fortunate that it does not leak. It is ridiculous fun to play for very little money invested.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2020-12-17 2:44 p.m.

For concert band use, the American baritones had their place as they are the instrument much of the older repertoire was written for. They blend differently in a wind band than a British euphonium does. Some would argue better or worse...I would just say different. That said, I have yet to play one that plays half as good as a decent euph does, and I've played some of the best ones (Conn 24I for example) including in groups. That doesn't mean a good one is a bad instrument, but a good euphonium is in another league. That good euphonium is also in another league price-wise too, though.

They are underrated in the sense that they are dirt cheap, like many other obsolete instruments. But until somebody forms a historical American concert band that uses actual American cornets and not massive 6/4 C tubas and so on (which I would be extremely down with), they are pretty well obsolete. That being said, you could always be the next Maynard and double on one for your jazz gigs, and as I said about the mellophonium, you have to create your own opportunities with obsolete instruments. Last year a sax/trumpet doubler friend of mine was looking for a low brass instrument to replace the terrible old valve trombone he had been struggling with. I encouraged him to buy a 4-valve King baritone in good shape that was on eBay, and he did and loves it. He's used it on quite a few sessions since then.

[quote="modelerdc"]I thought it was a big step backwards for marching bands to forgo traditional Sousas, bell front baritones, and/or slide trombones and adopt core style instruments! Another case of people hearing with their eyes.[/quote]

It's marching band...you're supposed to use your eyes at least as much as your ears. Visuals are not just important, but fundamental to the marching arts.

But even more than that, bell-front baritones are much more obnoxious to march with than marching baritones. Marching baritones are a clear improvement in every way...easier to hold, easier to play, easier to project, easier to balance. And they do look a million times better on the field, which DOES matter!

modelerdc · by **modelerdc** » 2020-12-17 3:10 p.m.

Yes, using yours eyes to see the spectacle of players marching together making formations, wearing attractive uniforms is very important. But as to the core style instruments looking better, that's just opinion, I would submit today's fad, and whether a sousa or marching horn or baritone looks better should really be secondary to how it plays. I wouldn't say all but many off these just don't play that well.

JohntheTheologian · by **JohntheTheologian** » 2020-12-17 3:13 p.m.

[quote="dukesboneman"]Yamaha 321 bass trombone[/quote]

I have a Yamaha 322R which was a slightly later version of the same horn with red brass bell and I love it.

Very sweet single trigger bass bone, especially for big band. Handles the low range with big sound, but is flexible enough to handle the upper range when necessary by popping in a slightly smaller mp. I play on a Marckiniewicz GR and have a Marc 3 which has the same identical rim and use the 3 for the occasional chart that doesn't have a real bass bone part and has the 4th bone go up into the upper range.

RustBeltBass · by **RustBeltBass** » 2020-12-18 2:28 a.m.

Tenor: King 4B/F

Bass: Anything Holton

Trombo · by **Trombo** » 2020-12-23 2:07 a.m.

Most underrated horns (IMHO):

Small/medium bore - Holton, Benge, Getzen, Blessing, Olds

Large bore/bass - King, Benge, Getzen, Blessing, Olds

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2020-12-23 5:21 a.m.

King 4b very good large bore horns imho

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2020-12-23 8:16 a.m.

[quote="Finetales"]The Conn 16E mellophonium, underrated by most everyone except Ray Starling, Gene Roland, and Stan Kenton.

Oh, we were talking about trombones???[/quote]

Once I joked about mellophoniums to Carl Saunders. He winced. "Ooo, that's a dirty word around here..."

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2020-12-23 12:09 p.m.

[quote="modelerdc"]Yes, using yours eyes to see the spectacle of players marching together making formations, wearing attractive uniforms is very important. But as to the core style instruments looking better, that's just opinion, I would submit today's fad, and whether a sousa or marching horn or baritone looks better should really be secondary to how it plays. I wouldn't say all but many off these just don't play that well.[/quote]

I have yet to play a bell front baritone that plays better than any of the marching baritones I've played. Granted I haven't played some of the known dogs like the Dynasty, but I've played quite a few brands of both types of instrument and the marching baritones were universally better players. The old Blessing I marched with in high school would play circles around most any other baritone of any sort. (It played so well that I tried to buy it from my HS band director years later, but she couldn't sell it to me because it was county property. Ah well.)

modelerdc · by **modelerdc** » 2020-12-23 3:24 p.m.

One that does play better than expected is the Flugabone

boneberg · by **boneberg** » 2020-12-23 3:34 p.m.

Getzen Eterna 1052 and 1062

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2020-12-23 3:50 p.m.

I suspect that if we made a list of OVERrated horns, we'd see many of the same names.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-12-23 3:52 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]I suspect that if we made a list of OVERrated horns, we'd see many of the same names.[/quote]

:good:

Hobart · by **Hobart** » 2020-12-23 8:29 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]I suspect that if we made a list of OVERrated horns, we'd see many of the same names.[/quote]

this gives me a new idea for a thread

BassBoneWadie99 · 2020-12-24 12:56 p.m.

Personally, I'd say that the King 7B and 8B's cousin the Benge 290 would definitely be one of them. Along with Getzen's Eterna Basses. At first I wasn't sure what to think of my 1062FD as I've had conflicting views, but overtime I've grown to like it's quirks and have grown attached as it was my first horn I've bought with my own money.

Different strokes for different folks

mahlertwo · by **mahlertwo** » 2020-12-24 1:08 p.m.

[quote="BassBoneWadie99"]Personally, I'd say that the King 7B and 8B's cousin the Benge 290 would definitely be one of them. Along with Getzen's Eternal Basses. At first I wasn't sure what to think of my 1062FD as I've had conflicting views, but overtime I've grown to like it's quirks and have grown attached as it was my first horn I've bought with my own money.

Different strokes for different folks[/quote]

Agreed. I'm selling my 290 if anyone wants to see how underrated it really is!

Crazy4Tbone86 · by **Crazy4Tbone86** » 2020-12-26 5:53 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]I suspect that if we made a list of OVERrated horns, we'd see many of the same names.[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing! Trombones are certainly a "different strokes for different folks" item. Many of the models that I see listed here are the exact models that I would put on my "least favorite" list. I don't say that to belittle anyone......I just think it is fascinating to see what different people think is a "great-playing horn." Thank goodness we have so many different models to choose from!

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-26 6:08 p.m.

Ah! the eternal bass....hope springs.....

Chris

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-12-26 6:26 p.m.

[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="134837" time="1608756627" user_id="104">
I suspect that if we made a list of OVERrated horns, we'd see many of the same names.[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing! Trombones are certainly a "different strokes for different folks" item. Many of the models that I see listed here are the exact models that I would put on my "least favorite" list. I don't say that to belittle anyone......I just think it is fascinating to see what different people think is a "great-playing horn." Thank goodness we have so many different models to choose from!
</QUOTE>

That is exactly the point with this thread. Here people list the horns that most people do not favour. The people posting here have discovered some of these horns to be a lot better than the reputation and thats why they are considered to be underrated.

My personal viewpoint is what horn is good or not depends on what you want. What style you are going to play and what part you are going to play and what people around you play.

Some think the good horns are few. Many consider the current horn they play to be the best horn they ever played or the horn they sold that they regret selling was the best horn or the horn they are going to buy is the best horn. I have a more forgiving attitude towards horns.

To me horns just play and sound different. There are horns that are more difficult to play and needs to be explored more and the first impression could then be they are awkward, but with a little work they can change a lot. If you consider professional horns and especially new ones there are not many real bad horns. The secret is to learn how to play them and to go with the horn and not try to make it to something it is not. You could try a different mouthpiece and that could completely change a horn. I think most do not experiment like that so they will never know. Some ebay horns I've bought just need a good clean. If you want a large deep sound to play modern classical symphonic repertoire then a Conn 4h or a Benge 170 freelance is maybe not a so good horn if you are not a magician.

/Tom

BassBoneWadie99 · 2020-12-27 3:52 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]Ah! the eternal bass....hope springs.....

Chris[/quote]
Whoops, looks like I forgot to turn off autocorrect.... LOL. Should be fixed now

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2020-12-27 8:28 a.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]There are horns that are more difficult to play and needs to be explored more and the first impression could then be they are awkward, but with a little work they can change a lot.

...

I think most do not experiment like that so they will never know.[/quote]

My professional work is in historically informed performance (keyboards, not brass), where the starting point is that the instruments have something to teach you in relation to their original repertoire, and you should be modifying your technique to suit. That doesn't mean you have to like every instrument, nor does it mean that all the instruments end up having equal potential, but the starting premise with an unfamiliar instrument is not 'why doesn't it do what I want?', but rather 'what is it designed to do best, what should I want from it, and how can I best make those things happen?'

With trombones, I have the luxury of behaving the same way, not least because I'm an amateur and there is zero risk involved. For a busy pro, this may not be practical or realistic. I find the process intrinsically interesting and enjoyable, and I'm fascinated by instrument design in its own right. Even if I never end up liking the instrument, I'll learn a lot about my own playing, and at least a bit about how instruments and mouthpieces work.

A while ago, I read someone objecting to interchangeable leadpipes (can't remember if it was here, or elsewhere on the dark web) - the mere possibility of choice overload was a cause of distress, even though they were already happy with their horn as it was. The worldview this implies is alien to me, but it exists, and its adherents should not pursue avenues that lead to unhappiness!

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-12-27 3:17 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]

My professional work is in historically informed performance (keyboards, not brass), where the starting point is that the instruments have something to teach you in relation to their original repertoire, and you should be modifying your technique to suit. That doesn't mean you have to like every instrument, nor does it mean that all the instruments end up having equal potential, but the starting premise with an unfamiliar instrument is not 'why doesn't it do what I want?', but rather 'what is it designed to do best, what should I want from it, and how can I best make those things happen?'[/quote]

This is how I look at my horns too. I'm a collector, not just a hoarder of trombones but also of trombone sounds. The oldest american horns I own are a Conn from 1902 and a King from 1904. I bought those just to know better the circumstances of the trombone players who were the pioneers of our instruments (especially pioneers in jazz). I did not know how the instruments they had back then played and are the instruments of today really better made? I had to get those instruments to learn. Since then I have collected a lot of horns. I have most of the well regarded professional horns, but also some unknown horns that are forgotten now. Were they bad horns? I have come to the conclusion the ideals change over time, just as I guess also is with other instruments as keyboards. The old trombones absolutely teach us a lot about repertoire if you choose to go that path. I think in the trombone world most do not do that if they are not interested in historical instruments like the sacbut. Most tromboneplayers I meet are not interested in old sounds, especially not the classical players. They might use their Conn 88h, Bach 42 or whatever fancy they own for everything.

/Tom

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2020-12-27 4:47 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]I'm a collector, not just a hoarder of trombones but also of trombone sounds.[/quote]

Yes, that's a really nice way to put it.

Similarly, I'm always surprised by those who dismiss modular/custom horns as encouraging the attitude that one can spend one's way to a better sound as opposed to putting in the necessary hours of practice.

Certainly, anyone shopping on that basis should be strongly discouraged for their own financial and emotional good.

Equally, however, there is nothing morally wrong with even a lousy player wanting to try a nickel silver hydrocoptic marzlevane out of pure musical curiosity.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-12-27 4:58 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]...

Equally, however, there is nothing morally wrong with even a lousy player wanting to try a nickel silver hydrocoptic marzlevane out of pure musical curiosity.[/quote]

I would agree with this provided the person buying the whizbang is capable of paying for it, not trying to wheedle the money from the Bank of Mom and Dad.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2020-12-27 5:18 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]I would agree with this provided the person buying the whizbang is capable of paying for it, not trying to wheedle the money from the Bank of Mom and Dad.[/quote]

That's fair :good:

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