King 2b Liberty
- Nobbi
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Nov 11, 2020
I can get my hands on a very well care taken King 2b Liberty from the early sixties.
Question: does it make sense to buy it? Since I am a beginner on the trombone and work on a 5b Symphony .... it would maybe cool to have a trombone for the higher registers for Jazz (and I really love vintage brass).
I probably know your answers .... you all more or less ended up with a nice collection and still further looking :lol:
If not going for the 2b Liberty I would spend my money for giving the 5b a new gold laquer dress.
Question: does it make sense to buy it? Since I am a beginner on the trombone and work on a 5b Symphony .... it would maybe cool to have a trombone for the higher registers for Jazz (and I really love vintage brass).
I probably know your answers .... you all more or less ended up with a nice collection and still further looking :lol:
If not going for the 2b Liberty I would spend my money for giving the 5b a new gold laquer dress.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
I think the 2b is the more logical choice over a lacquer job. Just my opinion
- Kingfan
- Posts: 1371
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
I second Elow - if you can get a 2B for a good price, do it. You can always get your money back on it - they are popular horns. I have small bore and large bore tenors and a bass myself. Having a variety of trombones opens up more reasons to practice and chances to play.
- Hobart
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Sep 15, 2019
I third Elow, I've never played a 2B but they're very commonly sought after. You won't lose much, if anything, if you try it, don't like it, and sell it again.
Plus, a small trombone is useful. The 5B is just too big for a lot of things, especially in a jazz setting. Having a 2B would make playing out of a lead book a lot easier. It's like having multiple tools in your shed; why not buy a hoe to supplement your rake?
Plus, a small trombone is useful. The 5B is just too big for a lot of things, especially in a jazz setting. Having a 2B would make playing out of a lead book a lot easier. It's like having multiple tools in your shed; why not buy a hoe to supplement your rake?
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Purchase the King 2B. They are fine trombones. You will love it, and it will be a useful complement to your 5B. Worth far more than a re-lacquer job!
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Just a subtle warning: don't play a 2B like a 5B. You won't sound nice. Smaller horns need less air and more finesse.
That said, having a small bore to complement your large bore is good, but make sure it won't interfere with any development of your playing.
That said, having a small bore to complement your large bore is good, but make sure it won't interfere with any development of your playing.
- Kingfan
- Posts: 1371
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Once you get the 2B, you will have to find a mouthpiece that works for you and your horn. I played a 4B with a Bach 5G as my only horn for many years . When I got a small bore I tried all the common Bach MPs from 7C up to 15 but they didn't feel right, they choked me off. Doug Elliott suggested trying a Bach 5, which is not "normal" for a 2B, but it really opened up the horn for me. I ended up getting one of his custom blends of similar specs that fits me even better. Good luck!
- Nobbi
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Nov 11, 2020
Thank you for your nice words .... seems like I have to enlarge my brass treasure chest.
I already have a nice mouthpiece for the 2b ..... a very mint Mt Vernon 15c..
I promise to play it different from die 5b ..... usually I let die instruments guide me since they all have their own character.
I already have a nice mouthpiece for the 2b ..... a very mint Mt Vernon 15c..
I promise to play it different from die 5b ..... usually I let die instruments guide me since they all have their own character.
- Nobbi
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Nov 11, 2020
Then it is mine, now!
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.de/itm/1960-65-H-N-Whi ... 1438.l2649">https://www.ebay.de/itm/1960-65-H-N-White-King-2B-Liberty-Trombone-389862-RARE-Early-Alligator-Case-YUM/264878223450?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649</LINK_TEXT>
Now, I need Patience.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.de/itm/1960-65-H-N-Whi ... 1438.l2649">https://www.ebay.de/itm/1960-65-H-N-White-King-2B-Liberty-Trombone-389862-RARE-Early-Alligator-Case-YUM/264878223450?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649</LINK_TEXT>
Now, I need Patience.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Nobbi"]...
Now, I need Patience.[/quote]
Patience is one of the two stone lions outside the main branch of the New York Public Library (the other is Fortitude).
Now, I need Patience.[/quote]
Patience is one of the two stone lions outside the main branch of the New York Public Library (the other is Fortitude).
- Kingfan
- Posts: 1371
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Congratulations! Let us know what you think about it once you have it.
- Nobbi
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Nov 11, 2020
Sorry guys,
really bad news. US customs killed the shipping in eBay's Global Shipping Center due to international restrictions concerning the Alligator leather case from 1961!!!!!!! It has no certificate that the leather was from an alligator breeding farm.
Further on they wrote, I shouldn't worry, they will refund the full amount to my bank account (which they did) but won't send it to me anymore and to the seller EITHER! What is going on here?
I am super disappointed ...
Nobbi
really bad news. US customs killed the shipping in eBay's Global Shipping Center due to international restrictions concerning the Alligator leather case from 1961!!!!!!! It has no certificate that the leather was from an alligator breeding farm.
Further on they wrote, I shouldn't worry, they will refund the full amount to my bank account (which they did) but won't send it to me anymore and to the seller EITHER! What is going on here?
I am super disappointed ...
Nobbi
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
"Pitney Bowes may (at its discretion) dispose of or liquidate GSP Items in any manner that they prefer, including without limitation, (a) returning the item to you at your costs, (b) handing over the item to the authorities or (c) destroying the item without notice."
This is a known risk. The seller may or may not get the item back (often not), though they won't necessarily be asked to reimburse the costs of refunding you, so it's possible that no-one loses money, but the instrument gets Disappeared.
The eBay GSP generally functions well, albeit slowly and massively overpriced, but when things go wrong you're dealing with a large and impenetrable system. Unfortunately, the terms of service are clear and the customs violation is legitimate (even if the practical and ethical implications are silly in this example). CITES regulations are very strict, and it's the seller's responsibility to inform themselves.
In any case, I'm glad you got your refund.
This is a known risk. The seller may or may not get the item back (often not), though they won't necessarily be asked to reimburse the costs of refunding you, so it's possible that no-one loses money, but the instrument gets Disappeared.
The eBay GSP generally functions well, albeit slowly and massively overpriced, but when things go wrong you're dealing with a large and impenetrable system. Unfortunately, the terms of service are clear and the customs violation is legitimate (even if the practical and ethical implications are silly in this example). CITES regulations are very strict, and it's the seller's responsibility to inform themselves.
In any case, I'm glad you got your refund.
- Oslide
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Apr 03, 2018
[quote="Nobbi"]---snippet---
Sorry guys,
really bad news. US customs killed the shipping in eBay's Global Shipping Center due to international restrictions concerning the Alligator leather case from 1961!!!!!!! It has no certificate that the leather was from an alligator breeding farm.
[/quote]
This must be a joke, isn't it!? That leather is plastic. I have a 2B with a serial number about 10,000 lower than yours, and with an identical case. I looked for some leather pattern in your pictures and found the identical one on my case. I also found that the patterns are continuous and repeating every 42 cm. That would never happen on an alligator. Are you pulling our legs?? :shock: :lol:
Sorry guys,
really bad news. US customs killed the shipping in eBay's Global Shipping Center due to international restrictions concerning the Alligator leather case from 1961!!!!!!! It has no certificate that the leather was from an alligator breeding farm.
[/quote]
This must be a joke, isn't it!? That leather is plastic. I have a 2B with a serial number about 10,000 lower than yours, and with an identical case. I looked for some leather pattern in your pictures and found the identical one on my case. I also found that the patterns are continuous and repeating every 42 cm. That would never happen on an alligator. Are you pulling our legs?? :shock: :lol:
- jbeatenbough
- Posts: 338
- Joined: Dec 13, 2019
Are fake alligators protected too?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="jbeatenbough"]Are fake alligators protected too?[/quote]
I guess along with Naugas :tongue:
I guess along with Naugas :tongue:
- Nobbi
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Nov 11, 2020
I wish I would pull your legs .... this is an insane story.
I really hope the seller can get the trombone since they definitely made a wrong decision (evidence is the returning pattern).
This needs to come to a good end.
I really hope the seller can get the trombone since they definitely made a wrong decision (evidence is the returning pattern).
This needs to come to a good end.
- Vegastokc
- Posts: 211
- Joined: Jun 15, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="Nobbi" post_id="131870" time="1606575764" user_id="10600">
...
Now, I need Patience.[/quote]
Patience is one of the two stone lions outside the main branch of the New York Public Library (the other is Fortitude).
</QUOTE>
Ok that's it, I'm now making a note not to play Trival Pursuit with you. Your well of knowledge is astounding. :lol:
...
Now, I need Patience.[/quote]
Patience is one of the two stone lions outside the main branch of the New York Public Library (the other is Fortitude).
</QUOTE>
Ok that's it, I'm now making a note not to play Trival Pursuit with you. Your well of knowledge is astounding. :lol:
- Nobbi
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Nov 11, 2020
Still being really frustrated ....
is there an Adequate to a 2b Liberty, out there?
Bach, Conn, Holton, Olds, Rath, Shire .... I can get my hands on a Thein Maxxim. Has anyone experience with Thein's?
is there an Adequate to a 2b Liberty, out there?
Bach, Conn, Holton, Olds, Rath, Shire .... I can get my hands on a Thein Maxxim. Has anyone experience with Thein's?
- Vegasbound
- Posts: 1328
- Joined: Jul 06, 2019
Contact DJ he has all things King and small bore
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
Theins are super expensive, if you can get one for 1200 that’s probably a good deal.
- Nobbi
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Nov 11, 2020
[quote="Elow"]Theins are super expensive, if you can get one for 1200 that’s probably a good deal.[/quote]
No ..... it's more like .... 4K ... this is why I am asking. Is it worth it?
No ..... it's more like .... 4K ... this is why I am asking. Is it worth it?
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
[quote="Nobbi"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="133291" time="1607601714" user_id="8680">
Theins are super expensive, if you can get one for 1200 that’s probably a good deal.[/quote]
No ..... it's more like .... 4K ... this is why I am asking. Is it worth it?
</QUOTE>
Personally, definitely not. I would post an ad in the classifieds looking for a small bore. You could get a shires Q33 that plays great for like 2k new
Theins are super expensive, if you can get one for 1200 that’s probably a good deal.[/quote]
No ..... it's more like .... 4K ... this is why I am asking. Is it worth it?
</QUOTE>
Personally, definitely not. I would post an ad in the classifieds looking for a small bore. You could get a shires Q33 that plays great for like 2k new
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Have you looked into Schmeltzer?
For a lot less you could consider a Conn 4H or Holton 65.
For a lot less you could consider a Conn 4H or Holton 65.
- Hobart
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Sep 15, 2019
[quote="Nobbi"]Still being really frustrated ....
is there an Adequate to a 2b Liberty, out there?
Bach, Conn, Holton, Olds, Rath, Shire .... I can get my hands on a Thein Maxxim. Has anyone experience with Thein's?[/quote]
My instructor said that, although Theins are fantastic horns, and that he wants one himself, apparently they don't blend the best with trombones that aren't Theins.
Don't take my word for it, but I feel like you could buy multiple fantastic horns for the same price as a Thein. You could buy a new 2B, although it's worth trying multiple, for about the same price, or buy as many as four older ones. I don't know many great alternatives to the 2B, but they are out there used, and for far less than the Thein.
If you don't mind going a little bit larger than a 2B, your options open up to include the Conn 6H, and bigger still, the 3B. They aren't too difficult to sell if needed, and are decent horns that will get the job done.
is there an Adequate to a 2b Liberty, out there?
Bach, Conn, Holton, Olds, Rath, Shire .... I can get my hands on a Thein Maxxim. Has anyone experience with Thein's?[/quote]
My instructor said that, although Theins are fantastic horns, and that he wants one himself, apparently they don't blend the best with trombones that aren't Theins.
Don't take my word for it, but I feel like you could buy multiple fantastic horns for the same price as a Thein. You could buy a new 2B, although it's worth trying multiple, for about the same price, or buy as many as four older ones. I don't know many great alternatives to the 2B, but they are out there used, and for far less than the Thein.
If you don't mind going a little bit larger than a 2B, your options open up to include the Conn 6H, and bigger still, the 3B. They aren't too difficult to sell if needed, and are decent horns that will get the job done.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Buddy Morrow, who took over the Dorsey Band for a time, played all Dorsey's solos on a Holton 65.
- Vegasbound
- Posts: 1328
- Joined: Jul 06, 2019
[quote="BGuttman"]Buddy Morrow, who took over the Dorsey Band for a time, played all Dorsey's solos on a Holton 65.[/quote]
Buddy took over the TDO in the late 70's , by which time he had become a King artist and played a 2b before switching in the early 80's to a 3b which he played until his death in 2010
Buddy took over the TDO in the late 70's , by which time he had become a King artist and played a 2b before switching in the early 80's to a 3b which he played until his death in 2010
- Vegasbound
- Posts: 1328
- Joined: Jul 06, 2019
[quote="Vegasbound"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="133357" time="1607626957" user_id="53">
Buddy Morrow, who took over the Dorsey Band for a time, played all Dorsey's solos on a Holton 65.[/quote]
Buddy took over the TDO in the late 70's , by which time he had become a King artist and played a 2b before switching in the early 80's to a 3b which he played until his death in 2010</QUOTE>
Listen to BM's earlier recordings he played a 65 and the later versions from the 30's through to the start of the 70's when he switched to a 6h
If you haven't heard Buddy's playing including the late 50's TD tribute record or his golden trombone recordings you are in for a real treat
Buddy Morrow, who took over the Dorsey Band for a time, played all Dorsey's solos on a Holton 65.[/quote]
Buddy took over the TDO in the late 70's , by which time he had become a King artist and played a 2b before switching in the early 80's to a 3b which he played until his death in 2010</QUOTE>
Listen to BM's earlier recordings he played a 65 and the later versions from the 30's through to the start of the 70's when he switched to a 6h
If you haven't heard Buddy's playing including the late 50's TD tribute record or his golden trombone recordings you are in for a real treat
- Nobbi
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Nov 11, 2020
Update on the beautiful King 2b eaten by eBy GSP for it's "crocodile-leather" case:
they are not spitting it out anymore because "they can not proof wether it's real animal skin or artificial leather".
Makes me nearly speechless .... just four words are left: NEVER USE EBAY GSP!!!!!
Meanwhile I tried to calm myself down and talked to pro sellers here in Germany to try lead horns that would fit me instead. Today, these two beauties arrived and I have 14 days until they need to be returned (or kept):
1. Conn 4h from 1940[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.de/itm/Conn-4h-Artist- ... true&rt=nc">https://www.ebay.de/itm/Conn-4h-Artist-Special-Elkhart-Jazz-Tenor-Posaune-Trombone-1940-wie-King-2b-/254778920923?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=mEqR1q6aeQnA07lZrKRDBhGGiWw%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc</LINK_TEXT>
2. King 2b from 1956[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.de/itm/King-2b-Liberty ... true&rt=nc">https://www.ebay.de/itm/King-2b-Liberty-Jazz-Tenorposaune-2102-1956-Trombone-Tromba-Karamellack-/254592096446?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=mEqR1q6aeQnA07lZrKRDBhGGiWw%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc</LINK_TEXT>
And this one is on it's way to me:
3. Thein custom from 1981 (today called Maxim)[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.de/itm/Tenorposaune-Th ... 1438.l2649">https://www.ebay.de/itm/Tenorposaune-Thein-Sonderanfertigung/114091593784?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649</LINK_TEXT>
First testing with beauty one and two feels somehow flat .... compared with my 5b. Although the 2b has a much warmer sound. Other than that, they are both really powerful in sound. I am impressed.
Both instruments don't have a spring below the mouthpiece section, so if I am too fast coming back to position one I may loose some teeth *joke*. If I keep one of these two, I need to have a spring installed.
Let's see the next days of playing ....
they are not spitting it out anymore because "they can not proof wether it's real animal skin or artificial leather".
Makes me nearly speechless .... just four words are left: NEVER USE EBAY GSP!!!!!
Meanwhile I tried to calm myself down and talked to pro sellers here in Germany to try lead horns that would fit me instead. Today, these two beauties arrived and I have 14 days until they need to be returned (or kept):
1. Conn 4h from 1940
2. King 2b from 1956
And this one is on it's way to me:
3. Thein custom from 1981 (today called Maxim)
First testing with beauty one and two feels somehow flat .... compared with my 5b. Although the 2b has a much warmer sound. Other than that, they are both really powerful in sound. I am impressed.
Both instruments don't have a spring below the mouthpiece section, so if I am too fast coming back to position one I may loose some teeth *joke*. If I keep one of these two, I need to have a spring installed.
Let's see the next days of playing ....
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
FWIW, King only put the springs on the large bore 4B, 5B, 6B, 7B, and 8B. I can't think of a single small bore I have played or seen that had slide springs; most just have bumpers (usually cork or felt).
I suspect you would have found the Liberty that was lost to play just like the 1956 one.
I suspect you would have found the Liberty that was lost to play just like the 1956 one.
- Vegastokc
- Posts: 211
- Joined: Jun 15, 2018
All three are beautiful horns. :good:
I follow elbblech on Instagram. He always has amazing stuff to show and sell.
And now the best part: deciding which one to keep. :D
I follow elbblech on Instagram. He always has amazing stuff to show and sell.
And now the best part: deciding which one to keep. :D
- Nobbi
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Nov 11, 2020
I had all three horns at home for one week, now. Very interesting, surprising, disappointing at certain points.
My original idea to have a King 2b was a good one and the 2b Liberty I had for testing is a beautiful horn and it's fun to play, precise to work. BUT .... it sounded like my 5b ... although less mellow and nice an full ... but alike. Since I love the sound and power my 5b I wanted a second trombone with a different sound especially for Jazz.
The Thein was a disappointment. I soaked the slide in Yamaha Slide Lubricant but couldn't get rid of this slight scratching sound ... which in the end could be fixed at Thein (nearby my home) of course. Else, that 40 year old instrument was in excellent condition, no ding, nothing. Right from it's first hand.
The sound and the handling is what disappointed me. That machine is fuzzy in sound and not precise in playing. Very strange, especially since I used the same mouthpiece for 2b, 4h and Thein, of course.
The Conn 4h Artist Special has this beaming bright sound and incredible power when you increase the air flow. It plays like a swiss clockwork, precise, clear .... simply fun to play and I can't feel it's 80 years. Very impressive and my final choice.
Thanks for all your comments. As usual, very helpful and experienced. :good:
My original idea to have a King 2b was a good one and the 2b Liberty I had for testing is a beautiful horn and it's fun to play, precise to work. BUT .... it sounded like my 5b ... although less mellow and nice an full ... but alike. Since I love the sound and power my 5b I wanted a second trombone with a different sound especially for Jazz.
The Thein was a disappointment. I soaked the slide in Yamaha Slide Lubricant but couldn't get rid of this slight scratching sound ... which in the end could be fixed at Thein (nearby my home) of course. Else, that 40 year old instrument was in excellent condition, no ding, nothing. Right from it's first hand.
The sound and the handling is what disappointed me. That machine is fuzzy in sound and not precise in playing. Very strange, especially since I used the same mouthpiece for 2b, 4h and Thein, of course.
The Conn 4h Artist Special has this beaming bright sound and incredible power when you increase the air flow. It plays like a swiss clockwork, precise, clear .... simply fun to play and I can't feel it's 80 years. Very impressive and my final choice.
Thanks for all your comments. As usual, very helpful and experienced. :good:
- FEWeathers
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Jan 04, 2019
Nice pick, Nobbi! Conn 4Hs are superb.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
4H is a great horn, seriously underrated instruments.
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
You’ve heard of the Yamaha 697z?
It was designed by former King 2B player Al Kay in Toronto to be the same or better for him. And Ian McDougall says it’s a “better 2B” (if you don’t know who Ian is you better check him out!)
Anyways, lots of people love the 697z
It was designed by former King 2B player Al Kay in Toronto to be the same or better for him. And Ian McDougall says it’s a “better 2B” (if you don’t know who Ian is you better check him out!)
Anyways, lots of people love the 697z
- Vegasbound
- Posts: 1328
- Joined: Jul 06, 2019
[quote="Cmillar"]You’ve heard of the Yamaha 697z?
It was designed by former King 2B player Al Kay in Toronto to be the same or better for him. And Ian McDougall says it’s a “better 2B” (if you don’t know who Ian is you better check him out!)
Anyways, lots of people love the 697z[/quote]
Have to agree, I owned Don Lusher's 697 and used it on the cruise ships it was a great horn, I have regretted selling it but had no option at the time.....great playing horn
It was designed by former King 2B player Al Kay in Toronto to be the same or better for him. And Ian McDougall says it’s a “better 2B” (if you don’t know who Ian is you better check him out!)
Anyways, lots of people love the 697z[/quote]
Have to agree, I owned Don Lusher's 697 and used it on the cruise ships it was a great horn, I have regretted selling it but had no option at the time.....great playing horn
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
Same here! Did a cruise ship gig with one. Kind of kicking myself for trading it away.
- jbeatenbough
- Posts: 338
- Joined: Dec 13, 2019
I have a good playing 1938 2b I could be talked out of...