1970s Bach Strad Model 50 bass trombone

jcemu07 · by **jcemu07** » 2020-12-02 9:37 a.m.

I have a Bach Strad Model 50 bass trombone. It has a dual independent F and Gb triggers. I believe is from the 1970s (1975 based on the serial #). Conn Selmer did not have a shop card for my instrument. Only information I have been able to find is from a repair shop that said it was made right around when Vincent Bach started being manufactured in Indiana. Does anyone know much about the model 50 from the 70s or know where I can find out more about it?

Thanks!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-02 3:00 p.m.

Sounds like a Corporation 50B3. Not much to know other than that.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2020-12-02 3:00 p.m.

[quote="jcemu07"]I have a Bach Strad Model 50 bass trombone. It has a dual independent F and Gb triggers. I believe is from the 1970s (1975 based on the serial #). Conn Selmer did not have a shop card for my instrument. Only information I have been able to find is from a repair shop that said it was made right around when Vincent Bach started being manufactured in Indiana. Does anyone know much about the model 50 from the 70s or know where I can find out more about it?

Thanks![/quote]

Selmer moved Bach production from Mt Vernon NY to Elkhart IN in the 1964- 65 time frame. When they moved production they started producing the trumpets and trombones in higher volumes. They also stopped generating shop cards. Especially early in the company's history, Vincent Bach was tinkering with the instruments. The shop cards were apparently his way of tracking what had been done and who it was sold to. (As an extreme example, the NY Model 6 had seven different variants, as Bach tinkered with neckpipes, tuning slides, etc.). In Elkhart, they concentrated on making instruments from the successful designs and tinkered a lot less. Now they don't tinker at all that I can discern.

That's a long way of saying that there never was a shop card for your horn.

A 1975 50B3 (the inline double valve bass) would be one of the very early B3s, if the bell and slide are original to each other, and if the instrument is original. That is, if it was not converted to an in-line by someone like Burt Herrick, Larry Minick, Chuck Alexander, or George Strucel.

jcemu07 · by **jcemu07** » 2020-12-02 3:08 p.m.

Thanks very much for the info Dennis! I think I'm at least the third owner of this horn. The lacquer was stripped and I think the slide isn't original to the horn. Is there a way to tell if it was converted to an in-line?

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2020-12-02 3:15 p.m.

[quote="jcemu07"]Thanks very much for the info Dennis! I think I'm at least the third owner of this horn. The lacquer was stripped and I think the slide isn't original to the horn. Is there a way to tell if it was converted to an in-line?[/quote]
Posting pictures would be the easiest way to tell!

jthomas105 · by **jthomas105** » 2020-12-02 3:25 p.m.

Pretty sure the Bach50b3 was not introduced until 1978 based on google search for Bach advertisement.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-12-02 3:38 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]<QUOTE author="jcemu07" post_id="132366" time="1606939694" user_id="10805">
Thanks very much for the info Dennis! I think I'm at least the third owner of this horn. The lacquer was stripped and I think the slide isn't original to the horn. Is there a way to tell if it was converted to an in-line?[/quote]
Posting pictures would be the easiest way to tell!
</QUOTE>

The serial number is on the slide, and it's very possible that the slide and bell are not original to each other.

Again, pictures can help identify.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-02 4:37 p.m.

Does the bell say Corporation on it?

jcemu07 · by **jcemu07** » 2020-12-02 5:15 p.m.

Here are pictures. Serial # on the slide is 15458. The slide also says Model 50 so I guess it is original to the horn.

<ATTACHMENT filename="20201202_165756.jpg" index="2">~~[attachment=2]~~20201202_165756.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
<ATTACHMENT filename="20201202_165749.jpg" index="1">~~[attachment=1]~~20201202_165749.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
<ATTACHMENT filename="20201202_165403.jpg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~20201202_165403.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-02 5:33 p.m.

That's been modded after the fact. No knowing which valve configuration it was at first. The second valve is from a 50B3, but could have come from somewhere else.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2020-12-02 6:21 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]That's been modded after the fact. No knowing which valve configuration it was at first. The second valve is from a 50B3, but could have come from somewhere else.[/quote]
I was thinking the same thing. The 2nd valve trigger at least is OEM Bach parts.

Do you think that's modern Conn 62h tubing? The wrap looks almost identical. Either way it looks slick!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-02 6:38 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]

Do you think that's modern Conn 62h tubing? The wrap looks almost identical. Either way it looks slick![/quote]

I was thinking the same thing... It would need a bit of finagling to fit the Bach valve spacing, of course

jcemu07 · by **jcemu07** » 2020-12-02 7:17 p.m.

Thank you all so much! This is very interesting information. Now that I think about it, 2 owners before me, the person liked to have custom work done on their horns.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2020-12-03 7:44 a.m.

[quote="Dennis"]Selmer moved Bach production from Mt Vernon NY to Elkhart IN in the 1964- 65 time frame. When they moved production they started producing the trumpets and trombones in higher volumes. They also stopped generating shop cards. Especially early in the company's history, Vincent Bach was tinkering with the instruments. The shop cards were apparently his way of tracking what had been done and who it was sold to. (As an extreme example, the NY Model 6 had seven different variants, as Bach tinkered with neckpipes, tuning slides, etc.). In Elkhart, they concentrated on making instruments from the successful designs and tinkered a lot less. Now they don't tinker at all that I can discern.

That's a long way of saying that there never was a shop card for your horn.

A 1975 50B3 (the inline double valve bass) would be one of the very early B3s, if the bell and slide are original to each other, and if the instrument is original. That is, if it was not converted to an in-line by someone like Burt Herrick, Larry Minick, Chuck Alexander, or George Strucel.[/quote]

Just a quick note, the shop cards stopped slightly before the transfer to Elkhart. The last trombone shop card in in the neighborhood of 6300. Serial numbers get kinda funny between there and ~10K, I don't trust those very much. There was some parallel production during the transfer, so you have some Elkhart horns with lower numbers than some Mt V. horns.. definitely not as disciplined as it was before or after. I would not be surprised to find duplicate serial numbers.

Cheers,

Andy

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2020-12-03 9:00 a.m.

The traditional closed wrap 50B3 doesn't have the valves at offset angles like that.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2020-12-03 2:16 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]The traditional closed wrap 50B3 doesn't have the valves at offset angles like that.[/quote]
No, but rotating the casings during the re-wrap would be no big deal.

jcemu07 · by **jcemu07** » 2020-12-04 8:35 a.m.

Would there be any benefit to a rewrap to rotate the casing or just for aesthetics or preference?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-12-04 8:54 a.m.

If you can rotate the valve slightly out of the plane of the bell, you can minimize bends in the tubing since the tubing will naturally fall above or below the plane of the bell. The whole idea behind open wraps was to minimize bends, so having o add a bend to move the tubing off the plane of the bell section seems to defeat the purpose.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-12-04 12:57 p.m.

[quote="jcemu07"]Would there be any benefit to a rewrap to rotate the casing or just for aesthetics or preference?[/quote]
Definitely not for aesthetics.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-04 3:15 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="jcemu07" post_id="132555" time="1607088922" user_id="10805">
Would there be any benefit to a rewrap to rotate the casing or just for aesthetics or preference?[/quote]
Definitely not for aesthetics.
</QUOTE>

Ok, I'll bite... This is such a weird thing that you and Dan Satterwhite always harp on. Why? No judgment here, there are some design trends I don't like either.

jcemu07 · by **jcemu07** » 2020-12-04 3:28 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="jcemu07" post_id="132555" time="1607088922" user_id="10805">
Would there be any benefit to a rewrap to rotate the casing or just for aesthetics or preference?[/quote]
Definitely not for aesthetics.
</QUOTE>
In your opinion. Obviously, someone had it done whatever their reason. Since unfortunately, I don't know who had this modified and I'm no expert in these modifications I thought others with more knowledge might help with insights. This is all very interesting to learn.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-12-04 3:46 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="132586" time="1607104625" user_id="7573">

Definitely not for aesthetics.[/quote]

Ok, I'll bite... This is such a weird thing that you and Dan Satterwhite always harp on. Why? No judgment here, there are some design trends I don't like either.
</QUOTE>

Well because it's different you think it's weird. Typical of different opinions these days. I happen to think that the valves place perfectly inline with each other looks great. I think the other looks bad and ergonomically "weird". My opinion. Not yours? That's fine but not weird.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-12-04 3:47 p.m.

[quote="jcemu07"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="132586" time="1607104625" user_id="7573">

Definitely not for aesthetics.[/quote]
In your opinion. Obviously, someone had it done whatever their reason. Since unfortunately, I don't know who had this modified and I'm no expert in these modifications I thought others with more knowledge might help with insights. This is all very interesting to learn.
</QUOTE>

At that's exactly what you received-my opinion.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2020-12-04 3:51 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="132603" time="1607112924" user_id="3131">

Ok, I'll bite... This is such a weird thing that you and Dan Satterwhite always harp on. Why? No judgment here, there are some design trends I don't like either.[/quote]

Well because it's different you think it's weird. Typical of different opinions these days. I happen to think that the valves place perfectly inline with each other looks great. I think the other looks bad and ergonomically "weird". My opinion. Not yours? That's fine but not weird.
</QUOTE>

Agreed, on aesthetic grounds I think it looks much cleaner to have the rotors flush in the plane of the bell.

With that said, I'll always take an instrument that sounds good over one that looks good.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-04 4:22 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="132603" time="1607112924" user_id="3131">

Ok, I'll bite... This is such a weird thing that you and Dan Satterwhite always harp on. Why? No judgment here, there are some design trends I don't like either.[/quote]

Well because it's different you think it's weird. Typical of different opinions these days. I happen to think that the valves place perfectly inline with each other looks great. I think the other looks bad and ergonomically "weird". My opinion. Not yours? That's fine but not weird.
</QUOTE>

I only say it's weird because you bring it up every chance you possibly can. :idk:

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2020-12-04 4:43 p.m.

I'm with Bill on this one.

Having the casings "off center" makes the construction a "little" bit easier, but to my eye, just doesn't look "right". I don't believe it makes any difference to the playability of the horn in any way. It does potentially have carry on effects with lever geometry, though.

Hobart · by **Hobart** » 2020-12-04 5:02 p.m.

This is going to sound odd, but I honestly find that rotating the valve casings creates a cleaner look, such as on the King 7B.

Some other open-wrap horns have to add additional small bends in order to reach their straight casings, in extreme cases ending up like the Conn 112H and its Jupiter clone, with a few large 90 degree bends.

These bends would in theory add more resistance. To me, they look even more clumsy than rotating the valve by 20 degrees to facilitate having tubing run into the valve at the right angle.

WGWTR180 · 2020-12-04 5:40 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="132605" time="1607114795" user_id="7573">

Well because it's different you think it's weird. Typical of different opinions these days. I happen to think that the valves place perfectly inline with each other looks great. I think the other looks bad and ergonomically "weird". My opinion. Not yours? That's fine but not weird.[/quote]

I only say it's weird because you bring it up every chance you possibly can. :idk:
</QUOTE>

And you always jump in anytime I bring something up. :hi:

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-12-04 5:43 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]I'm with Bill on this one.

Having the casings "off center" makes the construction a "little" bit easier, but to my eye, just doesn't look "right". I don't believe it makes any difference to the playability of the horn in any way. It does potentially have carry on effects with lever geometry, though.[/quote]

I was going to post a pic of one of your instruments to show the beauty, to my eye, in the design. I've always felt that other manufacturers that choose to offset the inline valves do it because the part coming out of the valve port is easier to make. I even saw a dependent setup with the 2nd valve turned in towards where my cheek would be. Not attractive at all.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2020-12-04 5:44 p.m.

Hobart, But that is not how it works. The shape of a valve loop wrap has much less influence on how the valve range plays than the valve design. If you find a 112H to be "stuffy", it isn't because of the valve wrap, it is because of the valves. An free blowing valve with a "traditional" tight wrap plays just as open as that same valve with an "open wrap". I've done the experiments!

Thanks Bill.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-12-04 5:49 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]The shape of a valve loop wrap has much less influence on how the valve range plays than the valve design. If you find a 112H to be "stuffy", it isn't because of the valve wrap, it is because of the valves. An free blowing valve with a "traditional" tight wrap plays just as open as that same valve with an "open wrap".

Thanks Bill.[/quote]

So no particular advantage to open wrap? Which is perhaps why I still love my old 88H? (Though it could be even better with a larger, more modern valve?) :idk:

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-04 5:50 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="132609" time="1607116922" user_id="3131">

I only say it's weird because you bring it up every chance you possibly can. :idk:[/quote]

And you always jump in anytime I bring something up. :hi:
</QUOTE>

Well, that's just patently untrue.

In any case... it's an odd thing to harp on, when there are plenty of really great horns out there with that design.

In the case of this particular instrument, it makes a lot of sense and looks well built. I'd love to give it a blow.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2020-12-04 6:01 p.m.

Aidan, personal proclivities influence everything in life. If having the casings off center means that you either like or dislike a horn, that is a personal preference which is real. Aesthetics are important. But not everyone has the same idea as to what is aesthetically pleasing.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-04 6:05 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]Aidan, personal proclivities influence everything in life. If having the casings off center means that you either like or dislike a horn, that is a personal preference which is real. Aesthetics are important. But not everyone has the same idea as to what is aesthetically pleasing.[/quote]

Yes, and I don't disagree. I just find it odd to chime in with that opinion presented as fact. There's plenty of things on instruments I don't like that I manage to keep to myself.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2020-12-04 6:12 p.m.

Posaunus.

The reason why trombones started being "open wrapped" was to prevent water collection in the wrap. Not to make the play more open. But that idea also came along with the change in trend. So now manufacturers offer open wraps because thatbis wht the market demands.

My favorite horn has an M&W valve with traditional wrap. It plays very open on the valve notes, but sure as apples starts to gurgle on valve notes after a while.

jcemu07 · by **jcemu07** » 2020-12-04 7:56 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="132625" time="1607121607" user_id="7573">

And you always jump in anytime I bring something up. :hi:[/quote]

Well, that's just patently untrue.

In any case... it's an odd thing to harp on, when there are plenty of really great horns out there with that design.

In the case of this particular instrument, it makes a lot of sense and looks well built. I'd love to give it a blow.
</QUOTE>

Bob if your ever in Michigan, feel free to reach out. Your welcome to play it.

jcemu07 · by **jcemu07** » 2020-12-04 8:00 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="hornbuilder" post_id="132615" time="1607118200" user_id="3205">
I'm with Bill on this one.

Having the casings "off center" makes the construction a "little" bit easier, but to my eye, just doesn't look "right". I don't believe it makes any difference to the playability of the horn in any way. It does potentially have carry on effects with lever geometry, though.[/quote]

I was going to post a pic of one of your instruments to show the beauty, to my eye, in the design. I've always felt that other manufacturers that choose to offset the inline valves do it because the part coming out of the valve port is easier to make. I even saw a dependent setup with the 2nd valve turned in towards where my cheek would be. Not attractive at all.
</QUOTE>

I'd be interested in seeing a pic of the design. Can you please post?

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2020-12-04 9:38 p.m.

Here are some photos of M&W Valve sections.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2020-12-04 11:21 p.m.

Those are some beautiful instruments, Matthew. I especially like how the traditional wrap manages to stay compact without looking super cluttered (a frequent problem for closed wrap basses). Looks like bell-free bracing on all of them too?

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2020-12-05 12:12 a.m.

The trad wrap does have bracing to the bell. It is not an issue because they are tension free, and they do not hamper bell resonance.

Another couple of pictures...

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-12-05 1:35 a.m.

:shock: Those look sooo good

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-05 5:33 a.m.

That single tis bell section is just stunning.

Chris

WGWTR180 · 2020-12-05 7:33 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="hornbuilder" post_id="132635" time="1607122879" user_id="3205">
Aidan, personal proclivities influence everything in life. If having the casings off center means that you either like or dislike a horn, that is a personal preference which is real. Aesthetics are important. But not everyone has the same idea as to what is aesthetically pleasing.[/quote]

Yes, and I don't disagree. I just find it odd to chime in with that opinion presented as fact. There's plenty of things on instruments I don't like that I manage to keep to myself.
</QUOTE>
Aidan you take my opinion as fact? It's my opinion. I'm not trying to harp on this but that's all it is. I'm not an instrument maker pounding my fist stating things like "how can anyone play this instrument."-and neither is anyone else here. It's an opinion. You have yours and I don't see where I said "you are wrong." If the horn plays great, which is all that matters, then great! If it doesn't it's not because of the valve placement. Enough.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-12-05 7:35 a.m.

Matthew seeing that independent traditional wrap is giving me ideas. Baaaad ideas. LOL!

JoeStanko · 2020-12-05 10:24 a.m.

Going off thread here..

[quote="hornbuilder"]

Another couple of pictures...[/quote]

Matt, here is a previous Bach 50 of mine with the plug in valve running down the bell. This design is easier to hold then the original Holton plug in which pulled the horn too much to the left for me.

PM'ing you regarding a down the bell plug in second valve option for a Holton 169.

Joe Stanko

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-05 11:49 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]Aidan you take my opinion as fact? It's my opinion. I'm not trying to harp on this but that's all it is. I'm not an instrument maker pounding my fist stating things like "how can anyone play this instrument."-and neither is anyone else here. It's an opinion. You have yours and I don't see where I said "you are wrong." If the horn plays great, which is all that matters, then great! If it doesn't it's not because of the valve placement. Enough.[/quote]

Again, Bill, I don't mind the opinion, just the way it's expressed.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-12-05 12:40 p.m.

Hmmmm. My original quote: "definitely not for esthetics". Horrifying.

Hobart · by **Hobart** » 2020-12-05 12:52 p.m.

Remember when this thread was about a Bach?

Frankly, I'm curious to how it plays. We can probably make another thread to tear each other apart about rotated valve casings.

jcemu07 · by **jcemu07** » 2020-12-05 5:18 p.m.

[quote="Hobart"]Remember when this thread was about a Bach?

Frankly, I'm curious to how it plays. We can probably make another thread to tear each other apart about rotated valve casings.[/quote]

Hobart, it plays very well. I've had more people ask about the the lacquer being stripped then anything else. I was told it was done for a perceived "darker sound". In any case I like horn. Got it for like $800.

Hobart · by **Hobart** » 2020-12-05 11:18 p.m.

[quote="jcemu07"]<QUOTE author="Hobart" post_id="132734" time="1607190761" user_id="7669">
Remember when this thread was about a Bach?

Frankly, I'm curious to how it plays. We can probably make another thread to tear each other apart about rotated valve casings.[/quote]

Hobart, it plays very well. I've had more people ask about the the lacquer being stripped then anything else. I was told it was done for a perceived "darker sound". In any case I like horn. Got it for like $800.
</QUOTE>

That's quite a steal, I got a horn in worse shape for $300 and one valve less.

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2020-12-06 1:06 p.m.

If the wrap itself is so much less important than the Valves itself, Why does not makers wrap more tubing towards the neckpipeside of the bell section... This would mean most of the weight would be carried by the spine rather than the left shoulder..? I guess that this would do wonders for not only Your body but would improve ease of execution Too...

dbwhitaker · by **dbwhitaker** » 2020-12-08 10:02 p.m.

[quote="Tbarh"]If the wrap itself is so much less important than the Valves itself, Why does not makers wrap more tubing towards the neckpipeside of the bell section...[/quote]

That side is where your head and neck are, isn't it? The D tube on my TR-180 already touches against my head when I play. There isn't room for any more tubing (at least for me).

Back to the original topic, I still have a Bach 50B2 that I bought new in 1974 and took to college in 1975. I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about open wrap horns in those days. I think they came later.

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2020-12-09 5:50 a.m.

[quote="dbwhitaker"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="132834" time="1607277978" user_id="3637">
If the wrap itself is so much less important than the Valves itself, Why does not makers wrap more tubing towards the neckpipeside of the bell section...[/quote]

That side is where your head and neck are, isn't it? The D tube on my TR-180 already touches against my head when I play. There isn't room for any more tubing (at least for me).

Back to the original topic, I still have a Bach 50B2 that I bought new in 1974 and took to college in 1975. I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about open wrap horns in those days. I think they came later.
</QUOTE>
Many ways to achieve what i am taking about... If the wrap itself is narrower it will stick out more at the back.. Usually this is argued as a problem because of tight spaces etc.. I had none of this problems when i used this kind of a horn... The more tubing and weight at the back Will make the horn balance better in outer position...

Alandsue · by **Alandsue** » 2024-05-11 4:07 p.m.

I am an amateur bass trombonist playing in a community jazz orchestra. Back in High School and some college, I originally played my tenor trombone, a 1974 Conn 88h, before stopping for a number of years. I picked it up again when my daughters were old enough to learn and taught them until they were old enough for private lessons. My oldest daughter got me back into playing after I retired in this jazz orchestra. I started playing bass using a 1 1/2G mouthpiece on my 88H until I "inherited" the 1967 Conn 72H from my brother and have been playing on that ever since.

I have now been playing in this jazz orchestra for the last 10 years or so and wanted to expand my bass trombone playing with a double trigger. An old friend had a "1970s" dependent double valve (Bb/G/D) Bach Stradivarius Model 50 that he lent to me to try. I am looking to learn how to effectively utilize the 2nd valve. But mainly I am looking to find when this trombone was manufactured and the exact model. Everything I see on the internet is Model 50 xx. The model I have does not have any additional numbers or letters after the 50 (on the bell) and the serial number on the slide puts it in a gray area of where there are no designations from 1970 to 1975 (s.n. 12xxx). Is there a way to determine the exact model I have, what year it was manufactured and what the instrument is worth?

Thank you.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-05-12 12:07 a.m.

You will probably have to make do with the 5 year approximations from serial number lists since the manufacture records are probably unobtainable.

Bach made two "classes" of double trigger bass trombones: dependent (first valve must be pressed to allow 2nd valve to work), and independent (either valve can be used separately). Bach calls the dependent model 50B2 and the independent model 50B3.

There are multiple tunings available for each model. The first valve is generally in F, while the second valve (if played alone) is commonly a half step (generally dependent only), G, or Gb. There was also a second valve tuning slide in C (not common). Thus, the most common combined valve tones are flat E, Eb, and D. There were no model differences for the different tunings as these required only a change in the 2nd valve tuning slide.

On a dependent system the 2nd valve is most useful for getting Db, C, and B natural in positions almost near 3rd for Db, around 4th for C, and between 5th and 6th for B natural (I'm referring to Bb positions here).

I'm going to duck your question about value since we have people here who know much more than I do.

Alandsue · by **Alandsue** » 2024-05-12 9:41 a.m.

Thank you as that answers some important questions. So, even though not labeled as such, I have the 50B2. That gives me something to research on. Thank you for the position location's as well. My original intent was to make the low B natural more convenient to hit but I am starting to learn the additional functionalities of the 2nd trigger.

Thanks again,

Alan.

Alandsue · 2024-05-16 11:03 a.m.

Again, any further input on the value range of this early 70s Bach 50B2 (S.N.12,731)? The second valve has been reconfigured to be operated from the pinky & ring finger. That valve is a bit sluggish as well as the slide which seems like it just needs a good cleaning but overall in quite good condition.

Also a value range on the dreaded Abiline TX years of the Conn 88H closed wrap trombone? I might sell my 1977 88H, which is in pretty good condition, to purchase the 50B2.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-05-16 4:53 p.m.

[quote="Alandsue"]Again, any further input on the value range of this early 70s Bach 50B2 (S.N.12,731)? The second valve has been reconfigured to be operated from the pinky & ring finger.[/quote]

That is probably 1972 instrument. My 36B is a 1972 with a 13,4xx serial number.

It almost surely started life as a 50B2 tuned to Bb/F/Eb. The valves were actuated by the left thumb, and had rollers (like sax keywork) to help the player slide from the single F valve to Eb with both valves. There was some custom work done to change the second valve to D and to split the trigger so the second valve is actuated by the fingers of the left hand. (The pinky and ring fingers are a bizarre choice--they share a ligament and are really more useful in supporting the instrument. Harpists and guitarists never pluck strings with their pinky.)

MarioBass · by **MarioBass** » 2024-11-26 6:10 p.m.

I have a Vincent Bach Stradivarius model 50 BL Bass Trombone, could you help me know more about it, serial number 82xx5

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-11-26 6:22 p.m.

[quote="MarioBass"]I have a Vincent Bach Stradivarius model 50 BL Bass Trombone, could you help me know more about it, serial number 82xx5[/quote]

Probably from around 1988-1992. The L designation usually means a large (10½"/265 mm) bell. There is usually a number added to the model: 50B is a single valve; 50B2 is a dual dependent valve; 50B3 is a dual independent valve. The number is not usually added to the model number on the slide or bell but you can add it to describe your horn better.

Hope this helps.

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1970s Bach Strad Model 50 bass trombone