I purchased a '70's King Cleveland 606 for high school marching last year for a very, very low price. It is is great condition after I had a tech tweak a few things. Almost mint condition I would say. I was looking for more of a beater but this one was hard to pass up.

My son also has an Olds Special '64, the tri-color one, that he has been using as his main trombone and for jazz band. He spend some time comparing the two horns recently and decided that he enjoys playing the King more. Easier to play, good balance, high notes easier, likes the sounds better. So, the Special is now in it's case. It's a beautiful trombone and he seemed to love it for years. I does sound a bit like he struggles here and there on high notes and overall stuffiness compared to the 606. The mouthpiece he uses on the Special is the Olds 3 and for the 606, he uses a Yamaha 48. Could be the mouthpieces that make the difference, right? The Yam 48 is more open in the throat I believe.

Anyway, I thought I'd mention that a good condition 70's King 606 (King Cleveland 606 is on the counterweight) seems to be be a good inexpensive trombone if you're looking for a student horn. Most are pretty beat up though.

Yes, mouthpieces can make a difference. There is not one single mouthpiece for each horn. What is best for me on my Kings isn't necessary best for somebody else on the same horns. Your son should try both mouthpieces in both horns. The Yamaha in the Olds Special might "un-stuffy" it for him. I agree, the 606 is a good horn for students. Good luck!

The Yamaha 48 doesn't fit the Special like the Olds 3 does. It doesn't go in as far. I was told here that the Olds 3 was the correct MP for the Special because of this.

[quote="Diana6"]The Yamaha 48 doesn't fit the Special like the Olds 3 does. It doesn't go in as far. I was told here that the Olds 3 was the correct MP for the Special because of this.[/quote]

Olds used a slightly smaller shank than the norm (like Bach, Conn, or Yamaha). As you notice, the Yamaha 48 doesn't fit the Olds very well. Usually a standard small shank mouthpiece will fit well enough to get an idea of how well it works. If that's the case, have him give it a try. If it works for him, it might be worth acquiring another Yamaha 48 and having the shank turned down to match the Olds 3 shank. Yamaha 48 is a common mouthpiece, so you should be able to pick up a used one pretty cheaply. Having a tech turn down the shank may cost more than the mouthpiece, but it's necessary to make things work right.

I forgot that some horns have oddball mouthpieces/mouthpiece receiver sizes. Sorry! I agree with what Dennis said. BTW I have an Olds 3 and a Yamaha 48 sitting around so did an eyeball comparison. Looks like the Olds has a slightly narrower cup at the top, a more V-shaped cup going down, and a noticeably smaller back bore than the Yamaha. Some people love smaller cups/bores, but some oddballs (like me!) like bigger pieces even on small horns like your Olds.

An Olds 1 mouthpiece (rarer than an Olds 3) is larger than the Olds 3, but will perfectly fit the undersized Olds Special receiver. But the Olds 1 is still quite a bit smaller than a Yamaha 48 (which has a larger shank that will not fit well into the Olds receiver).

Olds 3: Cup I.D. ~24.25mm, Throat 6.15mm

Olds 1: Cup I.D. ~24.50mm, Throat 6.35mm

Yamaha 48: Cup I.D. ~25.25mm, Throat 6.62mm

Thanks for the info.

My son is going to try different MP's on the Special. It just might be the Olds 3 that makes the Special feel stuffy to him. He sort

Are there any larger MP's from other brands that have smaller shanks that might work on the Special? All the MP's he has stick out further than the Olds 3. My son sort of had a revelation when he played these 2 trombones back to back and felt that the 606 was much more to his liking and easier to play.

At this point, we could also sell the Special and he could use the 606 until college. If he continues to play in college, which is likely, we could look for a 3B since he likes the 606? for jazz/big band. He also has a Yam 356R for concert band.

I've tried a few other small-shank mouthpieces that sort of fit better into an Olds receiver. But all of them are also rather small pieces. Included are some older Bach pieces (known for their inconsistency) – 12C, 11C, 7C.

Standard small-shank pieces, if really made to the standard, will all be a bit large. But most can still be used in an Olds, just not quite optimally.

[quote="Diana6"]Thanks for the info.

My son is going to try different MP's on the Special. It just might be the Olds 3 that makes the Special feel stuffy to him. He sort

Are there any larger MP's from other brands that have smaller shanks that might work on the Special? All the MP's he has stick out further than the Olds 3. My son sort of had a revelation when he played these 2 trombones back to back and felt that the 606 was much more to his liking and easier to play.

At this point, we could also sell the Special and he could use the 606 until college. If he continues to play in college, which is likely, we could look for a 3B since he likes the 606? for jazz/big band. He also has a Yam 356R for concert band.[/quote]

I did some comparisons. I might be confusing the issue even more, but from what I can find out, the Olds Special has a dual bore, .485 opening up to .500. It did in 1970, anyway. The specs for the 356R show it to be a dual bore trombone too, bore of .500 opening up to .525. The King 606 is .500 bore, the standard 3B is .508 bore, and their 3B+ model has a .525 bore. So, it looks like the Yamaha splits the difference between the 3B and 3B+ Kings (on paper, anyway). However, specs are one thing and performance is another. Depending on the college, the Yam should be fine for big band/jazz band playing unless he is on lead. I suggest seeing which college he goes to and what they are looking for before spending money. That's just one old guy's opinion...