Big Small Bore Mouthpiece

alberttrombone · by **alberttrombone** » 2020-12-14 3:26 p.m.

Hello everyone!

Since here in Barcelona it's not possible to try different mouthpieces in a store (even when there was no COVID19 you couldn't find almost anything else than a Bach 6 1/2), can you help me in my search?

I'm looking for a "big" mouthpiece for a medium bore trombone, for a Bach 36.

I want a bigger cup diameter than the Bach 5GS that I have now and I was thinking about a Dennis Wick 5BS for example...

Any ideas?

Thanks for your time and take care!

marccromme · by **marccromme** » 2020-12-14 3:36 p.m.

When you say big, do you mean large cup diameter, or also large cup Volumen and big throat and back bore?

There are schilke 51 with small shank, but personally I prefer a smaller Yamaha 48 D for medium bore.

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2020-12-14 3:57 p.m.

I just got a Rath S4 1/2 and like the way it works for me with a Bach 36. It‘s comfortable on my face and has a good balance of material quantity and feedback. I‘d use it for light orchestral playing with the Bach 36 given the chance and think this would be a great combo for upper parts in symphonic wind orchestra, brass band or 10-piece ensembles also.

I already had a Rath S5 which I also like a lot but may even slightly prefer the feel of the S4 1/2 based on first impressions. My chops just feel a bit more relaxed with the 4 1/2.

There‘s also a Rath S4, which is slightly larger again, I haven‘t tried it yet so can‘t say much about it other than I‘ve been generally impressed with the design and manufacturing quality of all Rath mouthpieces I‘ve tried.

The Rath mouthpieces are more expensive than standard Bach/Wick models etc. but are still way cheaper than some boutique models, at least in Europe and when I last looked around.

harrisonreed · 2020-12-14 4:03 p.m.

Sure, you could go the Griego-Alessi route and get a small bore mouthpiece with a width up to a 2G and a depth to almost the same.

Or, you could go the Doug Elliott route and get a cup width up to almost any size you want, and to almost any depth.

I would suggest Doug Elliot. I have his mouthpieces for my small bore and my alto. I keep thinking I should just get a couple for my large bore and just be done with it.

modelerdc · by **modelerdc** » 2020-12-14 4:04 p.m.

A Bach 4 with a small shank is a stock item and should work, not my favorite I feel it could use a little bit bigger throat. Bach also makes a 3 with a small shank. As these are stock you should be able to order them.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-14 4:12 p.m.

[quote="modelerdc"]A Bach 4 with a small shank is a stock item and should work, not my favorite I feel it could use a little bit bigger throat. Bach also makes a 3 with a small shank. As these are stock you should be able to order them.[/quote]

IMO these have too small of throats to really jive with a .525. Yes, that rhymes.

Vegasbound · by **Vegasbound** » 2020-12-14 4:15 p.m.

Doug Elliott can put together whatever you want

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2020-12-14 4:25 p.m.

I`ve been getting excellent results on a Schilke 51B on my small horns

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-12-14 4:53 p.m.

On my Bach 36 I've used a Wick 4BS, Warburton 7D/4 shank, Bach 4C, Remington small shank, and of course, my Elliott LT 102/E/E4

I know you can get a Schilke 52 in small bore, and probably Laskey 57 (5 equivalent) or 59 (4 equivalent).

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-12-14 5:18 p.m.

What is the most comfortable and successful rim size that works best for you?

In my mouthpieces, I would suggest something from the LT or XT series, with an E cup and E4 shank. I use an XT N104, E, E4 on my 36B. (The "N" is for narrow, I prefer thin rims). I offer lots of choices and it's not a problem to send to Barcelona. I just wish I could go myself.... I love Barcelona.

pedrombon · by **pedrombon** » 2020-12-14 5:29 p.m.

Email sent from Granada <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>

Trav1s · 2020-12-14 5:37 p.m.

[quote="dukesboneman"]I`ve been getting excellent results on a Schilke 51B on my small horns[/quote]

Used that for 30 years on .525" horns. I only moved away from it for a Doug Elliott setup which is in my signature.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2020-12-14 8:23 p.m.

[quote="alberttrombone"]I'm looking for a "big" mouthpiece for a medium bore trombone, for a Bach 36.

I want a bigger cup diameter than the Bach 5GS that I have now and I was thinking about a Dennis Wick 5BS for example...[/quote]
A little bigger or a lot bigger?

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-12-14 9:53 p.m.

• First choice: Contact Doug Elliott

• My second choice would be a small-shank Schilke 51 (I regularly play a large-shank Schilke 51 on my 0.547" bore tenor).

• Unlike some others, I've never found myself compatible with a Schilke 51B.

In fact, I have a small-shank 51B that I will be selling some day soon.

modelerdc · by **modelerdc** » 2020-12-15 1:37 a.m.

Burger bob wrote "IMO these have too small of throats to really jive with a .525. Yes, that rhymes."

I feel that way too. I'd like to see them with throats and back bores more like a 6 1/2AL or perhaps a 5GS cup, but Bach is Bach!

some other ones to consider, Schilke 52D, which sounds nice on a 36, Warburton 4GS, also very good, Giardinelli 3D, large but hard to find, and of course Doug Elliott.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2020-12-15 12:57 p.m.

I dont do much tenor work and not often on a 525 bore but when I do Doug Elliots set up XT N104, E, E4 is by far the best set up I have ever played, totally brilliant for a 525. The bonus is you just buy the large shank and it will play just as well on a 547. My principal trombone plays a 525 bore Yamaha and has this exact set up and he swears by it. Doug Elliot has the power to deliver whatever you want by fine tuning the components. Talk to him... Doug

bimmerman · by **bimmerman** » 2020-12-15 2:51 p.m.

I bought a Bach 4 from a forum member here long ago that was a custom order with a bigger throat, stamped "F" at the cup/shank area. It plays pretty well but I bought a setup from Doug that has supplanted it.

For years before, however, I used a Bach 5G/5GS on my small shank .525/547 horns. This 4 is great for that purpose too.

alberttrombone · by **alberttrombone** » 2020-12-16 3:39 a.m.

[quote="marccromme"]When you say big, do you mean large cup diameter, or also large cup Volumen and big throat and back bore?

There are schilke 51 with small shank, but personally I prefer a smaller Yamaha 48 D for medium bore.[/quote]

Both! Thanks!

alberttrombone · by **alberttrombone** » 2020-12-16 3:40 a.m.

Thanks for all that shared knowledge!

BenjaminStrickland · by **BenjaminStrickland** » 2020-12-17 11:32 a.m.

Hello, we can make all of our Symphony Tenor and New York models for small bore tenor trombones. If interested just shoot us an email. Thanks!

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2020-12-20 7:46 a.m.

take a look on the JK EXCLUSIVE line. Avaiable with small, medium and large shank. Sometimes i play a 4 F

(26,50 mm) on my alto

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.jk-klier.de/en/mouthpieces/ ... n#trombone">https://www.jk-klier.de/en/mouthpieces/trombone-euphonium-tenor-horn-tuba--alto-horn#trombone</LINK_TEXT>

Slidennis · by **Slidennis** » 2020-12-23 2:18 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="modelerdc" post_id="133877" time="1607979880" user_id="3210">
A Bach 4 with a small shank is a stock item and should work, not my favorite I feel it could use a little bit bigger throat. Bach also makes a 3 with a small shank. As these are stock you should be able to order them.[/quote]

IMO these have too small of throats to really jive with a .525. Yes, that rhymes.
</QUOTE>

I second this : the throat is too small for my liking... (smaller than the 6.5 AL)

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2020-12-23 4:53 a.m.

throat size of the Klier EXCLUSIVE line, example size 4 (26,50 mm)

4 A 7,2 mm very deep

4 B 6,8 mm deep

4 C 6,4 mm medium

4 D 6,0 mm shallow

4 E 5,8 mm very shallow

4 F 5,8 mm extrem shallow

Ted · by **Ted** » 2020-12-23 6:54 a.m.

Heinzgries,

Do you also know which cupdepth matches with an G, or GS?

kr,

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2020-12-23 2:18 p.m.

i think its the B CUP

Trhtrbn · by **Trhtrbn** » 2023-06-06 1:32 p.m.

I have been playing a Yamaha YSL-352 and I have small shank mouthpieces. If I change to a YSL-447GS, what size shank mouthpiece will I need?

Aznguyy · by **Aznguyy** » 2023-06-06 3:25 p.m.

[quote="Trhtrbn"]I have been playing a Yamaha YSL-352 and I have small shank mouthpieces. If I change to a YSL-447GS, what size shank mouthpiece will I need?[/quote]

Still a small shank.

Trhtrbn · by **Trhtrbn** » 2023-06-06 3:26 p.m.

Thanks

Bach5G · 2023-06-06 3:50 p.m.

I like a small shank 51 or an Elliott LT 104 E E4 on my.525 Shires.

JLivi · by **JLivi** » 2023-06-06 4:27 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]IMO these have too small of throats to really jive with a .525. Yes, that rhymes.[/quote]
I came here to say this. I play a 79h and my AR 60 back bore was plugging up. The 65 opened things up and made it easier.

Trhtrbn · by **Trhtrbn** » 2023-06-08 1:09 p.m.

I appreciate all input, to paraphrase what a wise person once said, the only bad response is no response. I have been talking to my bass bone instructor about which mouthpiece to get for my Bach Omega 0.547 large bore tenor to play bass parts until my used YBL-612 gets here from Japan, probably a few weeks. I am getting a Yamaha 59L for my bass bone. He recommended for the large bore tenor to use a Bach 5G or equivalent. My question is does anyone use a Yamaha small shank 52? Can someone tell me what they think of that mouthpiece, please?

btone · by **btone** » 2023-11-16 10:45 p.m.

I just saw your question. I think the Yamaha 52 small shank mouthpiece is a very good medium bore (.525) trombone mouthpiece. It could probably work pretty well on a baritone horn or small shank euphonium, too, because it is not over-bright in any register, and has a good low range. In size it is not very different from a Schilke 51 small shank, but reminds me a little more of a Bach mouthpiece. I also tried the large shank Yamaha 52 but wasn't impressed with it. It doesn't seem to work nearly as well, and I really couldn't see a use for it.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2023-11-16 11:03 p.m.

The Griego Artist small shank pieces are really nice. So are Doug Elliott's options.

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2023-11-17 2:41 a.m.

[quote="Trhtrbn"]I have been playing a Yamaha YSL-352 and I have small shank mouthpieces. If I change to a YSL-447GS, what size shank mouthpiece will I need?[/quote]

The 447 is the straight version of the 448. They are .547-bore horns and take large shank mouthpieces.

Aznguyy · by **Aznguyy** » 2023-11-17 5:24 p.m.

[quote="greenbean"]<QUOTE author="Trhtrbn" post_id="211771" time="1686072760" user_id="16681">
I have been playing a Yamaha YSL-352 and I have small shank mouthpieces. If I change to a YSL-447GS, what size shank mouthpiece will I need?[/quote]

The 447 is the straight version of the 448. They are .547-bore horns and take large shank mouthpieces.
</QUOTE>

You're right... I was thinking of the YSL-445.

flotrb · 2023-11-17 5:51 p.m.

I have been pleased with the Marcinkiewicz 8H-S on my 1975 King Sterling 3B .508" bore tenor. The 8H-S works with ease in all registers, especially the "factitious" and pedal notes. Although the Marcinkiewicz catalog likens it to a VB 6½AL, I think of it more in the VB 4 class.

iBuena Suerte!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2023-11-17 6:42 p.m.

[quote="flotrb"]I have been pleased with the Marcinkiewicz 8H-S on my 1975 King Sterling 3B .508" bore tenor. The 88H-S works with ease in all registers, especially the "factitious" and pedal notes. Although the Marcinkiewicz catalog likens it to a VB 6½AL, I think of it more in the VB 4 class.

iBuena Suerte![/quote]

I beg to differ. I normally play Bach 4 sized mouthpieces (4C, 4G, Wick 4BL, DE 102 rim) and I found the Marc 8H to feel much smaller. I was thinking of trying a 6, but other stuff came along and I never followed through.

Beaker · by **Beaker** » 2023-12-29 9:22 p.m.

Have You looked at or considered a Bach 3G by chance. They come in both small and large shanks.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-12-29 9:38 p.m.

I (briefly) tried a small-shank Bach 3 mouthpiece, and found it to be terribly unbalanced. Large Cup, very small (5.85mm) Throat. I think that's when I decided if I want a larger diameter Rim, i should check out Doug Elliott's system. Works much better! If you like Doug's Rim shape (I do) you can get pretty much anything you want and be happy.

Too many confuse bigger Rim with bigger Cup - because (especially) with Bach, that's all you get. Doug has shown that it doesn't have to be that way - from him you can get a large diameter Rim with a medium (or even small) volume Cup.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2023-12-29 11:52 p.m.

I switched to AR and have been happy with Tony’s 25.70 with the 65 backbore with my Williams 8/9 and Bach 36B. I feel it’s right on the money for medium bore horns.

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