Spit causing problems with euphonium.
- JCBone
- Posts: 373
- Joined: Jul 29, 2020
I have a friend who bought a chinese non compensating euphonium for about $2.5k more then a year ago. There are already lots of problems including slow and clanky valves. He got in touch with the seller and he said that the problem is because "he spits too much into the instrument". This doesn't sound right to me but what do you think?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Spitting won't cause clanky valves. Sloppy assembly and fit will. This is a major problem with some Chinese euphoniums (euphonia?).
He may also need to use a heavier oil on the valves. Also check to make sure that the felt bumper pads are there -- may be some shoddy assembly process as well.
He may also need to use a heavier oil on the valves. Also check to make sure that the felt bumper pads are there -- may be some shoddy assembly process as well.
- JCBone
- Posts: 373
- Joined: Jul 29, 2020
[quote="BGuttman"]Spitting won't cause clanky valves. Sloppy assembly and fit will. This is a major problem with some Chinese euphoniums (euphonia?).
He may also need to use a heavier oil on the valves. Also check to make sure that the felt bumper pads are there -- may be some shoddy assembly process as well.[/quote]
Thats what I thought. I know the seller and I have a feeling that he is a fraud even though he's very nice. He once tried to charge me 50 dollars to fix a spring
He may also need to use a heavier oil on the valves. Also check to make sure that the felt bumper pads are there -- may be some shoddy assembly process as well.[/quote]
Thats what I thought. I know the seller and I have a feeling that he is a fraud even though he's very nice. He once tried to charge me 50 dollars to fix a spring
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I'd say he paid $2.5k too much.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
That’s a lot of money for probably a piece of trash, that’s more than i paid for my yamaha 642. I would try to get a refund
- Cotboneman
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Jul 27, 2018
[quote="JCBone"]I have a friend who bought a chinese non compensating euphonium for about $2.5k more then a year ago. There are already lots of problems including slow and clanky valves. He got in touch with the seller and he said that the problem is because "he spits too much into the instrument". This doesn't sound right to me but what do you think?[/quote]
Is he saying your friend is an Alien, with acid fluids running through his body? Spit doesn't cause valves to rattle; cheap materials and poor workmanship do. I'd check the paperwork for any warranties for sure.
Is he saying your friend is an Alien, with acid fluids running through his body? Spit doesn't cause valves to rattle; cheap materials and poor workmanship do. I'd check the paperwork for any warranties for sure.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
[quote="JCBone"]chinese non compensating euphonium for about $2.5k[/quote]
What? :amazed: That's more than a good compensating Wessex even now that they're trending more premium. It's also close to the price of the best non-compensating euphs on the market from established brands like Yamaha or King.
Seller is definitely a fraud. Probably too late for a refund, so that is a very expensive lesson. There's probably not much to be done if it's just a shoddily made instrument, and he'll have to decide how much money to sink into repairs given that the horn will probably still be junk.
What? :amazed: That's more than a good compensating Wessex even now that they're trending more premium. It's also close to the price of the best non-compensating euphs on the market from established brands like Yamaha or King.
Seller is definitely a fraud. Probably too late for a refund, so that is a very expensive lesson. There's probably not much to be done if it's just a shoddily made instrument, and he'll have to decide how much money to sink into repairs given that the horn will probably still be junk.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
We need to separate bad advice from the physical problems with the horn....
There are plenty of fools out there giving bad advice. Obviously, placing the blame on the saliva glands of the player is absolute buffoonery! However, we should not jump to the conclusion that the horn is worthless because the seller gave such absurd advice.
I have seen and played quite a few Chinese stencil compensating euphoniums. Sure.....some of them were not too good, but some of them have been decent. The decent ones that I played were in the $1500-$1800 range. Most importantly, the instruments needed to be set up correctly. Many of these euphoniums arrive in the USA with moisture/lime scale on the inside because they have been sitting around in damp warehouses for months. I have found that a chemical/ultra-sonic cleaning combined with a valve cork/felt alignment on many of these instruments will result in a very acceptable instrument. Even if the valves are still slow after a cleaning, there are other things that can be done to make the pistons work more reliably.
The owner of this instrument should not give up hope yet. I'm sure that 30-60 minutes of work completed on this instrument by a skilled technician will certainly result in faster and quieter valves.
There are plenty of fools out there giving bad advice. Obviously, placing the blame on the saliva glands of the player is absolute buffoonery! However, we should not jump to the conclusion that the horn is worthless because the seller gave such absurd advice.
I have seen and played quite a few Chinese stencil compensating euphoniums. Sure.....some of them were not too good, but some of them have been decent. The decent ones that I played were in the $1500-$1800 range. Most importantly, the instruments needed to be set up correctly. Many of these euphoniums arrive in the USA with moisture/lime scale on the inside because they have been sitting around in damp warehouses for months. I have found that a chemical/ultra-sonic cleaning combined with a valve cork/felt alignment on many of these instruments will result in a very acceptable instrument. Even if the valves are still slow after a cleaning, there are other things that can be done to make the pistons work more reliably.
The owner of this instrument should not give up hope yet. I'm sure that 30-60 minutes of work completed on this instrument by a skilled technician will certainly result in faster and quieter valves.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Sorry folks.... I thought this was a compensating model. Yes, the price was a bit high for a non-compensating euphonium. Still.....the owner should not give up hope that the instrument has potential.
One of the things that is taught to almost every technician is...."a Bundy clarinet can play as well as a Buffet R-13 IF IT IS SET UP CORRECTLY." I have done work on many "cheap" brass instruments that have resulted in horns that play just as good as professional instruments that cost ten times as much. Every instrument has potential.
One of the things that is taught to almost every technician is...."a Bundy clarinet can play as well as a Buffet R-13 IF IT IS SET UP CORRECTLY." I have done work on many "cheap" brass instruments that have resulted in horns that play just as good as professional instruments that cost ten times as much. Every instrument has potential.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]
One of the things that is taught to almost every technician is...."a Bundy clarinet can play as well as a Buffet R-13 IF IT IS SET UP CORRECTLY."[/quote]
:| Really?
One of the things that is taught to almost every technician is...."a Bundy clarinet can play as well as a Buffet R-13 IF IT IS SET UP CORRECTLY."[/quote]
:| Really?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="Crazy4Tbone86" post_id="134664" time="1608572547" user_id="8392">
One of the things that is taught to almost every technician is...."a Bundy clarinet can play as well as a Buffet R-13 IF IT IS SET UP CORRECTLY."[/quote]
:| Really?
</QUOTE>
When he says "play as well" he's talking about the mechanicals. You will never get Resonite to sound like ebony wood.
Materials for brass instruments are much more alike than some of the stuff from which orchestral woodwinds are made. A properly set up and de-stressed King 606 will play much better than most, although there are some things in its design that make it different from a 2B+.
A good going-over of the Euph in question won't make it a Sterling, but could make it a serviceable instrument for a learner or even a doubler.
One of the things that is taught to almost every technician is...."a Bundy clarinet can play as well as a Buffet R-13 IF IT IS SET UP CORRECTLY."[/quote]
:| Really?
</QUOTE>
When he says "play as well" he's talking about the mechanicals. You will never get Resonite to sound like ebony wood.
Materials for brass instruments are much more alike than some of the stuff from which orchestral woodwinds are made. A properly set up and de-stressed King 606 will play much better than most, although there are some things in its design that make it different from a 2B+.
A good going-over of the Euph in question won't make it a Sterling, but could make it a serviceable instrument for a learner or even a doubler.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Funny that Bruce should mention the King 2B+ comparison to a King 606. I have played several 606s that were outrageously good. Yet, I have never played a King 2B+ that I have liked.
I believe that a well-assembled student model can very easily outplay a poorly assembled artist model. I also strongly believe that certain designs are inherently better for some players than others....no matter how expensive the instrument might be. In other words......if someone shows up at a gig playing a Bundy and he/she sounds fantastic, does it really matter what brand/model they are playing?
Back to the original post.... I just don’t think that the owner of the euphonium should give up on the horn. Slow and noisy valves are something that can be found on a Wilson or Adams euphonium as easily as a low-priced instrument. I’m certain that any decent technician could take care of the problem.
I believe that a well-assembled student model can very easily outplay a poorly assembled artist model. I also strongly believe that certain designs are inherently better for some players than others....no matter how expensive the instrument might be. In other words......if someone shows up at a gig playing a Bundy and he/she sounds fantastic, does it really matter what brand/model they are playing?
Back to the original post.... I just don’t think that the owner of the euphonium should give up on the horn. Slow and noisy valves are something that can be found on a Wilson or Adams euphonium as easily as a low-priced instrument. I’m certain that any decent technician could take care of the problem.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
One issue you can run into with Chinese instruments is that some techs won't touch them. Sometimes with justification -- some have really poor materials in addition to sloppy assembly.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I too am shocked by how good a King 606 can be. I've purchased a couple of used ones to give to local high school students who need their own trombones. One was from 1986 (S/N 1318xx), engraved TEMPO 606 and was pretty beat up. I had to take it to a tech for overhaul (including patching an axial crack on the bell). It's now not perfect, but suitable for high school band. The other seems much newer (S/N 9775xx), engraved 606. It came from a music store's rental pool, and was sent to me in near-perfect condition (lacquer, slide, tuning slide, case all look almost new; the slide is 9.5/10). And it plays beautifully, with a nice singing sound. I would not be ashamed to use this wonderful trombone in a professional setting. A satisfying, slightly larger complement to my prized vintage King 2B. I think I will not pass it on to a student! <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
- JCBone
- Posts: 373
- Joined: Jul 29, 2020
Of course, when it comes to fixing up old instruments, there is also the question of price. The common wisdom is, if the repair costs more than the instrument is worth, then it's best ro just buy a new instrument. So is it really worth it to restore a beat up instrument if it's not something super special?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I would suspect that the instrument in question is not beat up since the owner was trying to get warranty service from the dealer.
- JCBone
- Posts: 373
- Joined: Jul 29, 2020
[quote="BGuttman"]I would suspect that the instrument in question is not beat up since the owner was trying to get warranty service from the dealer.[/quote]
I'm not talking about the euphonium in question. It's just a general question.
I'm not talking about the euphonium in question. It's just a general question.
- JCBone
- Posts: 373
- Joined: Jul 29, 2020
Well my friend got the seller to replace the instrument.. With another one from the same company. [facepalm]. Anyways, he says it's a better model and I didn't want to ruin the excitement. We'll see what happens.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="JCBone"]Well my friend got the seller to replace the instrument.. With another one from the same company. [facepalm]. Anyways, he says it's a better model and I didn't want to ruin the excitement. We'll see what happens.[/quote]
Given the spotty quality of Chinese instruments it's entirely possible that a different sample of the same model plays much better. Good luck to him.
Given the spotty quality of Chinese instruments it's entirely possible that a different sample of the same model plays much better. Good luck to him.