Can someone ID this please?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-12-27 5:02 p.m.

Not much to go on here. It's pretty generic, but with a screw bell. Is there any engraving to help us?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-27 5:07 p.m.

Throja or Kromat german-style bass, looks like. Could be any of those smaller German makers

RustBeltBass · by **RustBeltBass** » 2020-12-27 5:09 p.m.

Looks like a Throja to me, but it’s hard to be sure from that one picture. Many features of German style, snake, rim around the bell. (THomas RObert Jahn=Throja). Very successful German maker, his instruments are played by Berlin Philharmonic members and many others. The valve wrap is very much looking like one. Didn’t know he did screw rim bells, so I might be wrong.

http://www.throja.de/start.php

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2020-12-27 5:23 p.m.

If i'm not mistaken, Olaf Ott and Stephan Schulz both play throja correct?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-27 5:24 p.m.

[quote="JCBone"]If i'm not mistaken, Olaf Ott and Stephan Schulz both play throja correct?[/quote]

I'm probably wrong, but I think Stefan's horn is a Kromat (as well as his new Courtois).

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2020-12-27 5:38 p.m.

This is a closed wrap version of the Throja bass... Nickel silver Bell with gold brass kranz.. I tested his basses in ITF 2009 in Århus, Denmark... He had a lot of options, all of them sounded fantastic.. At the time they were the best sounding basses i had ever played... But it has run a lot of water under the bridge since then...Havent run into one since then...

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2020-12-27 5:53 p.m.

Throja by Thomas Jahn.

Nice horns!

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2020-12-27 6:40 p.m.

As said it's a Throja, closed wrap. Never seen one with a screw bell before.

I own one since 2006 (?) and love it although it needs a new slide.

Great instrument, not as traditionally German as a Kruspe or Voigt, but still very different than a Bach or Conn.

Olaf Ott has been playing the tenor for a very long time. Stefan Schulz played the bass for some years, but as already mentioned now officially plays Courtois, but is often seen with a Kromat ;-)

Seems to be the better fit for the occasional Kruspe Weschke on top.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2020-12-27 6:44 p.m.

But what is that mouthpiece?!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-27 6:55 p.m.

[quote="MStarke"]But what is that mouthpiece?![/quote]

First glance might tell you Monette, but it's the wrong outer shape. Perhaps a heavyweight AR Resonance, but I have a feeling it's some small maker I don't know.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2020-12-31 2:33 p.m.

Interesting valve mounting, though I can see the benefit of it.

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2020-12-31 2:53 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]Interesting valve mounting, though I can see the benefit of it.[/quote]

I think it's inspired by the valve design of some older german trombones.

UncleJenny · 2021-01-02 10:25 p.m.

As previously mentioned, it’s a Throja bass trombone by Thomas R. Jahn, Berlin/Germany.

Here’s a picture of mine for comparison.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-03 1:29 a.m.

I met Thomas Jahn back when he was making Pfretchner trombones. I knew about the Throja name but didn't realize it came from his own name... thanks for mentioning that. I've never played one but I'm sure they're excellent.

UncleJenny · by **UncleJenny** » 2021-01-03 1:35 a.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]Interesting valve mounting, though I can see the benefit of it.[/quote]

Bore sizes for the valves are accending. 1st one (Gb) has 15.5 mm, the 2nd (F) 16.0 mm

Dual bore slide with 14.25-14.85 mm.

UncleJenny · 2021-01-03 12:08 p.m.

Somehow my previous post vanished. So here it is again:

————————

As some have already mentioned, it’s a Throja bass trombone by Thomas R. Jahn. Here’s a picture of mine dor comparison.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-03 12:10 p.m.

That's some seriously big tubing, making it all very conical. How does it play and sound?

14.25 / .14.85 is a dual bore slide .561/.585

15.5mm is .610 for the Gb valve

16.0mm is .630 for the F valve

UncleJenny · by **UncleJenny** » 2021-01-03 1:07 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]That's some seriously big tubing, making it all very conical. How does it play and sound?

14.25 / .14.85 is a dual bore slide .561/.585

15.5mm is .610 for the Gb valve

16.0mm is .630 for the F valve[/quote]

How to describe? In short, German.

Warm, never to big, never overbearing. My Shires had the tendency to cut through in loud dynamics. The Throja doesn‘t.

Has that special sizzle I was looking for.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2021-01-03 1:19 p.m.

[quote="UncleJenny"]<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="136011" time="1609693803" user_id="51">
That's some seriously big tubing, making it all very conical. How does it play and sound?

14.25 / .14.85 is a dual bore slide .561/.585

15.5mm is .610 for the Gb valve

16.0mm is .630 for the F valve[/quote]

How to describe? In short, German.

Warm, never to big, never overbearing. My Shires had the tendency to cut through in loud dynamics. The Throja doesn‘t.

Has that special sizzle I was looking for.
</QUOTE>

I can basically confirm this.

Very very warm, broad and dark when loud, not just a brassy big sound.

Broad and still lively when soft. Never dull.

It does require lots of air, but response is quite good, also in the high register.

Best when playing Alpine Symphony, Wagner or Bruckner.

Okay, but not first choice for Haydn's creation.

I have once played an okay Tuba Mirum on it in a rehearsal.

Low and valve registers are very good and feel more open than some other rotaries.

It does offer lots of options, so customization is possible, but will probably keep a certain character.

I like it much more than e.g. the Theins I heard and/or tried.

RustBeltBass · by **RustBeltBass** » 2021-01-03 1:47 p.m.

What makes his approach to German trombone making unique that his ideas are truly based on his time with Pfretschner. And as far as I know he is the only maker who carries on that very particular idea of trombone making. The other well known German makers (Lätzsch, Kromat, Thein) all are part of the Lätzsch tradition which is why they all are located in or around Bremen.

In that respect Throja is truly outstanding. There are, of course, the different Voigt family companies, Jürgen, Horst, Helmut from Mark Neukirchen who have their own roots and are leading traditional East German concepts into the international market, but Throja is really a bit of its own world in my opinion.

The “German sound” has been mentioned here as an attribute to these instruments, but I don’t know....all of the above mentioned are so different in their ideas that this alone In my opinion contradicts the idea of German sound.

I had the chance to play for two years in what many in Germany would probably describe as the most traditional German Orchestra in the world and the sound I got used to by playing with this orchestra was so different from another world famous orchestra, barely two hours away which used completely different (all German) equipment.

Here in the USA sometimes in conversations with colleagues I hear “X is the most German sounding group in the UNited States”. Not always sure what to think of it....what are we talking about ? A sound color, a way of articulation, a different way of approaching louder dynamics than others ?” Maybe that’s reason enough for its own topic here one day.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2021-01-03 3:58 p.m.

Absolutely true in my view...

Although German trombones are certainly all different to American-style trombones, they are also different among each other.

This can be rather subtle things like material thickness at certain spots, exact placement and constructions of valves, tubings and braces, but also easily measurable key dimensions like bore sizes.

German altos, tenors, basses and contra basses vary largely in bore sizes, bell diameters and profiles.

Assuming that there is "one German trombone" is clearly an over-simplification.

And also absolutely true - related to RustBellBass's remark on German orchestras:

Even those playing completely or mostly German trombones sound very very different.

E.g. Staatskapelle Dresden, Berlin Philharmonic and SWR Radio Orchestra (they at least used to play German trombones in the past).

Yes, let us have some more talk on German trombones :-D

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2021-01-03 5:12 p.m.

What I found interesting is that the owner of this instrument plays in a American style orchestra. The owner also comes from the german tradition.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2021-01-03 5:53 p.m.

[quote="JCBone"]I think it's inspired by the valve design of some older german trombones.[/quote] Well it definitely seems to allow the valves to sit a bit closer, and gives more options for the valve wraps.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2021-01-03 6:09 p.m.

[quote="JCBone"]What I found interesting is that the owner of this instrument plays in a American style orchestra. The owner also comes from the german tradition.[/quote]

German Bass and American tenors can work quite well, that's not unusual. In my studies we had mostly German Bass trombones and almost exclusively American tenors (with a tendency towards Conn).

What I have never really seen is the other way around, could be a bit unbalanced.

RustBeltBass · by **RustBeltBass** » 2021-01-03 7:34 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="JCBone" post_id="135659" time="1609444428" user_id="9797">I think it's inspired by the valve design of some older german trombones.[/quote] Well it definitely seems to allow the valves to sit a bit closer, and gives more options for the valve wraps.
</QUOTE>

What Markus said. I would go almost as far as saying that the majority of the 130 something full time orchestras have mixed sections. Bachs are still very popular, I’d say maybe even more so with now older players, but you also see Edwards (less) and Shires (more). Conns are also seen, although I’d say less than the ones before. One of the most famed studios in Europe is led by Jonas Bylund who plays Conn. many of his students follow that and play Conns as well, always the modern ones, never the historic models from what I remember. SilverCL as well.

Yamaha an be seen as well, but less.

From past experiences I would say that American tenors and German bass works better than vice versa.

Overall, I do think that the German trombone is in decline. The more globalized audition scene brings More competitive people from all over the world who play anything but German horns, making the amount of overall professionals who play American instruments go up.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2021-01-03 8:21 p.m.

This is all very interesting. American basses are basically big Bb tenor designs with valves, but that Throja is something else entirely, maybe more proportioned as an F instrument.

RichardW · by **RichardW** » 2021-01-04 1:19 p.m.

I have a Throja width 2 (~medium size tenor) and the Throja width 5 (~bass). I haven't played an American bass trombone so far. So I only can compare the tenor with American style instruments.

The tubing of the Throja bass is quite large, but it responds well and does not require too much effort to play.

The design of the Throja Trombones favours a full, "dark" sound. I don't know whether we should call it "German" sound. I can imagine a range of musical styles, where this sound would fit in well.

For me, it seems that the Throja tenor does not slot so pronounced as a trombone with single bore and more cylindrical desing. I can bend the tone more. I have the feeling that I need to target the pitch a little bit more towards the upper side of the "slot". Otherwise, the tone quality may suffer. Probably, this characteristics is the cause for the opinion we hear sometimes about "German" trombones, that they sound dull. American or more cylindrical design may be a bit more forgiving in that respect.

I believe the main typical design aspects to achieve this sound are:

- dual bore slide probably of a little smaller input width than american trombones

- taper of the tuning slide probably more conical

- bell more conical. Generally wider at middle and end than american trombones. Larger bell flare.

- less sheet thickness of the bell?

- one piece bell hand hammered

- Kranz stabilizes the bell flare so it will not ring at higher volumes.

Despite some traditional elements (user specific) like kranz and snake, the Throja trombones are modern instruments built after the latest standards of craftmanship. The build quality is outstanding. The slide can compete with any other top class trombone. Ergonomics are excellent. It is well balanced and relatively easy to hold.

I wouldn't say that the German trombone is in decline. In the past years, a couple of new makers have started. Choice is increasing rather than decreasing. But they are generally built in smaller numbers and therefore perhaps not noticed as much.

JonTheCadet · by **JonTheCadet** » 2021-01-08 8:54 a.m.

It might be also worth mentioning that Throja makes more than just trombones. I remember going to their factory-showroom in 2019 and there were natural horns all over the wall, plenty of French horns, trumpets, and the manager was fixing a piccolo trumpet. I also remember seeing a very petite-dimensioned F alto, but I don't have pictures for it. I absolutely adore their red Kranz on their silver, hand engraved bells.

They also recommend their trombones be played with a Bruno Tilz mouthpiece.

RichardW · by **RichardW** » 2021-01-08 11:51 a.m.

Interesting. I heard that there is a Throja alto that is not on the homepage. Are the Instruments you have seen from own production or maybe sales items?

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Can someone ID this please?