sections that play one brand

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2020-12-28 9:17 a.m.

What trombone sections in major orchestras play exclusively on a singke vrand? Is there a clear advantage to this practice or is it just tradition?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-12-28 9:28 a.m.

Nowadays it's pretty unusual, or sometimes coincidental.

At one time the Cleveland Orchestra played King trombones, but that was simply because they were in Cleveland and King provided the instruments.

I would guess that Shires or Edwards may predominate in different orchestras.

Does it make a difference? Less than the musicianship and style of the players using the horns. Blend comes from people working together to get the sound they need. Not because of XYZ instruments.

Gary · by **Gary** » 2020-12-28 10:14 a.m.

As a conductor and Musical Director, I only care about results. If one player needs horn X and another horn Y but get the same resulting sound, that's al I care about. If someone's sticking out in the section, then they need to change. But not to a horn/mpc that matches the solo player in equipment, to equipment that allows that player to match the principle in sound.

Now, I'm not naïve, I realise there will be some who take a hard line on equipment, but I consider that more affectation than taste.

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2020-12-28 10:38 a.m.

Chicago Symphony, all Bach.. Boston, all Edwards...

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2020-12-28 11:25 a.m.

[quote="Gary"]As a conductor and Musical Director, I only care about results. If one player needs horn X and another horn Y but get the same resulting sound, that's al I care about. If someone's sticking out in the section, then they need to change. But not to a horn/mpc that matches the solo player in equipment, to equipment that allows that player to match the principle in sound[/quote]

In most cases, the player’s concept of sound and understanding of their role in the section is what determines whether they stick out or not. No amount of changing equipment will make a difference. I once played principal in an orchestra where the second trombonist played like a principal. I couldn’t get him to change concept, and instead tried going the route of getting him to try 4 different horns, all with the same end result. He wanted to be principal, and that was it.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-12-28 11:52 a.m.

Isn’t new york now all shires?

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2020-12-28 11:55 a.m.

St. Louis and National Symphony and Vancouver are all Edwards sections. Toronto is all Shires. I think Minnesota is all Bach.

Some other sections started with everyone on the same brand for a while, but trombonists are always looking for the "better mousetrap" - nothing lasts forever. Good players blend with whatever tools they choose.

Jim Scott

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-12-28 11:56 a.m.

The Met is all playing Courtois. But I think most of the time a section plays all the same it's because they are monetarily incentivized to do so by the maker.

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2020-12-28 11:58 a.m.

[quote="Elow"]Isn’t new york now all shires?[/quote]

Dave Finlayson plays a Yamaha.

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2020-12-28 12:03 p.m.

[quote="Tbarh"]Chicago Symphony, all Bach.. Boston, all Edwards...[/quote]

In the previous iteration of the section, Friedman played a Bach, Crisafulli a Holton, and Kleinhammer a Williams/Schilke/Reynolds Frankenbone. Find a better blended section than that.

fsgazda · by **fsgazda** » 2020-12-28 12:05 p.m.

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]St. Louis and National Symphony and Vancouver are all Edwards sections. Toronto is all Shires. I think Minnesota is all Bach.

Some other sections started with everyone on the same brand for a while, but trombonists are always looking for the "better mousetrap" - nothing lasts forever. Good players blend with whatever tools they choose.

Jim Scott[/quote]

Saw a masterclass at ITF where the Minnesota section played all Bach for some pieces, then switched to all Conn for some pieces.

stewbones43 · by **stewbones43** » 2020-12-28 12:14 p.m.

[quote="Neo Bri"]The Met is all playing Courtois. But I think most of the time a section plays all the same it's because they are monetarily incentivized to do so by the maker.[/quote]

"Monetarily incentivised" !!!!! Is that the same as being paid? :shuffle:

Sorry, American is not my first language, I am English. :redface:

No offence meant, just couldn't resist it.

Thanks for lightening my day; it hadn't been going so well. I had just played my trombones for the first time in over a week and it showed :weep:

Also the Covid situation means that we are in lockdown here and we haven't seen our kids over Christmas; it isn't easy to hug someone on "Zoom"

And it has been raining all day here.

Cheers and a Happy New Year.

Stewbones

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-12-28 12:26 p.m.

[quote="stewbones43"]<QUOTE author="Neo Bri" post_id="135179" time="1609174565" user_id="50">
The Met is all playing Courtois. But I think most of the time a section plays all the same it's because they are monetarily incentivized to do so by the maker.[/quote]

"Monetarily incentivised" !!!!! Is that the same as being paid? :shuffle:

Sorry, American is not my first language, I am English. :redface:

No offence meant, just couldn't resist it.

Thanks for lightening my day; it hadn't been going so well. I had just played my trombones for the first time in over a week and it showed :weep:

Also the Covid situation means that we are in lockdown here and we haven't seen our kids over Christmas; it isn't easy to hug someone on "Zoom"

And it has been raining all day here.

Cheers and a Happy New Year.

Stewbones
</QUOTE>
Sorry - I've been accused of being overly-verbose before...

And sorry for your (and many peoples') situation. It must be very hard. This stuff will pass but it doesn't make it easier for now.

Also, about the NSO - weird. When I lived there I remember Matt Guilford playing a Shires (I had a lesson with him before an audition).

mahlertwo · by **mahlertwo** » 2020-12-28 12:46 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]Isn’t new york now all shires?[/quote]

I think Finlayson's still playing a Xeno.

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2020-12-28 12:59 p.m.

[quote="chromebone"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="135173" time="1609169909" user_id="3637">
Chicago Symphony, all Bach.. Boston, all Edwards...[/quote]

In the previous iteration of the section, Friedman played a Bach, Crisafulli a Holton, and Kleinhammer a Williams/Schilke/Reynolds Frankenbone. Find a better blended section than that.
</QUOTE>

Jay Friedman Said in an interview recently that they actually did not sound very similar... Friedman darkish, Crissafulli bright and Kleinhammer very clear... The blend was actually due to Great musician ship, and everyone knowing what their Job was.. Also look at Vienna philharmonic... Never similar instruments always similar sound...

jjenkins · by **jjenkins** » 2020-12-28 1:08 p.m.

Except taken from an interview with Jay Friedman

Dan Gosling: Right, right. And so I guess one of the questions that I had was the Chicago sound, is that something that you would talk about, or is that something that we on the outside use to just sort of conjure up, to sort of describe this phenomenal thing that was happening? Was it intentional or was it-

Jay Friedman: It was never discussed. I don’t think it was ever discussed at that time. I mean, Herseth played the way he played. Yeah, it’s funny. I’ll tell you a little story.

Dan Gosling: Please do.

Jay Friedman: A little story. We were in London in 19 … Well, actually, we were in England. We were in Edinburgh. Yeah, Edinburgh, at the Edinburgh Festival, 1971, which is the first European tour that we did with Solti. And like I say, we spent a week in Edinburgh at the festival, and the London Symphony happened to be there. And Denis Wick was there. And I had corresponded with him since the ’60s, ’cause he was kind of my hero. I mean, one of my heroes at that time.

And he was there. And he said … so we were doing Mahler Five, which we’d probably played about 200 times, and every time we’d go on tour, everybody would ask for Mahler 5, you got sick of it. Every wanted us to do Mahler 5. So we did Mahler 5 in Edinburgh, and actually, the trombone section at that time was me, Crisafulli, and Mr. Kleinhammer. We had totally different sounds. Yeah, I mean, I had kind of a dark sound. Crisafulli had a very bright sound, even though it was a big sound. And Kleinhammer was just a super clear and alive. They were kind of three different sounds.

Well, when Denis Wick heard us player Mahler 5, he said, “I don’t understand how you do it. You guys have three different sounds, and yet when you play, it sounds like one giant trombone. It’s an amazing sound.”

So yeah, that was it. Somehow it came together. There was a famous disagreement between Mr. Kleinhammer and Mr. Crisafulli and they had a falling out in the early ’50s, and they never spoke to each other after [00:25:00] that. There was such a professional atmosphere then that they really didn’t need to discuss things. I mean, everybody was so conscientious that they played their own part and they had their own standards. And there was a standard there that just never went below a certain level. There was a certain kind of stability, a crazy stability there. Yeah, even though they didn’t get along, they had such high standards that they didn’t need to talk about it. So yeah, it was very strange."

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.chopsaver.com/a-conversatio ... -friedman/">https://www.chopsaver.com/a-conversation-with-jay-friedman/</LINK_TEXT>

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-12-28 1:34 p.m.

I can’t remember who, but i think it was james markey in one of the edwards quartet videos saying that there’s something special about all the horn resonating the same way, maybe someone asked him to say that but he said it so there’s that

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2020-12-28 1:46 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]I can’t remember who, but i think it was james markey in one of the edwards quartet videos saying that there’s something special about all the horn resonating the same way, maybe someone asked him to say that but he said it so there’s that[/quote]

Well alessi also said tgat he would play edwards for the rest of his life just before he switched. I would take that with a grain of salt.

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2020-12-28 2:00 p.m.

I believe the London Symphony is all Yamaha now?

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-12-28 2:00 p.m.

[quote="JCBone"]

Well alessi also said tgat he would play edwards for the rest of his life just before he switched. I would take that with a grain of salt.[/quote]

Fair point, didn’t he say that like literally a couple months before he switched? Money can do some crazy things

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2020-12-28 2:03 p.m.

The Israel Philharmonic Trumpets and Trombones are all Shires except Micha Davis who insists on playing a 500 year old bach 50b with a single valve.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2020-12-28 2:05 p.m.

[quote="johnjenkins"]

I mean, everybody was so conscientious that they played their own part and they had their own standards. And there was a standard there that just never went below a certain level. There was a certain kind of stability, a crazy stability there. Yeah, even though they didn’t get along, they had such high standards that they didn’t need to talk about it.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.chopsaver.com/a-conversatio ... -friedman/">https://www.chopsaver.com/a-conversation-with-jay-friedman/</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

That’s it: high standards, or artistic excellence, are MUCH more important that equipment choices. And I like the phrase “a crazy stability.” That says it all.

My personal opinion (which amounts to very little compared to other professionals here on TC and elsewhere):

While it is easier to produce a coherent section sound when people play the same brand or similarly-designed equipment, the sound of the section is much more the result of musicianship than equipment. Yes, it will be easier if everyone plays the same brand or a similarly-designed instrument, e.g., everyone has a horn with a one-piece soldered rim on the bell, or everyone plays with a two-piece red or gold brass unsoldered rim. But it’s the attention to articulations, beginnings and ending of notes, balance, intonation, and other factors, that are more important.

The second thing: While it’s important to get along with each other, it’s not essential. Friedman, via Crisafulli’s and Kleinhammer’s relationship, attests to that, as can other trombone sections. Yes, I’d much rather play in a group or section where I get along with others than in a group where there’s friction between members. But putting aside any personal problems is essential when playing music. The audience doesn’t care whether, say, the trumpet player and tuba player in a brass quintet just had an argument before stepping on stage. The audience is there to listen to music. The quintet’s job is to relay the feeling intended by the composer. Neither the audience nor the composer care about equipment choices. That’s up to the performer. If the equipment choice makes it easier to obtain a satisfying blend, great. If not, the musician must adapt to create the best blend possible.

***

Sorry for the rant, but I see (and hear) so many people emphasize equipment choices over musicianship when discussing section playing that I felt compelled to say something.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-12-28 3:13 p.m.

[quote="sf105"]I believe the London Symphony is all Yamaha now?[/quote]

No Conns? I’m shocked.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-12-28 3:31 p.m.

[quote="johnjenkins"]Except taken from an interview with Jay Friedman

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.chopsaver.com/a-conversatio ... -friedman/">https://www.chopsaver.com/a-conversation-with-jay-friedman/</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

John,

Thanks so much for the link to the entire Friedman interview. Long, but fascinating! :good:

jjenkins · by **jjenkins** » 2020-12-28 4:07 p.m.

You're very welcome! I stumbled upon this interview this past November and was impacted immensely by what I read.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2020-12-28 4:24 p.m.

John Romero at the Met plays a Shires - the rest play Courtois. I think the Lyric Opera are all Courtois, but that could have changed. The post about the Minnesota section all changing between Bachs and Conns - I remember Ron Barron talking about the BSO section doing that (in the mid/late 70's). Their Bass player did, however, use a Holton rather than a Conn for that purpose. I have a fairly recent recording of some great players who did the same thing with Edwards and Thein.

I absolutely get why sections sometimes try to get everyone on the same page this way, but players tend to migrate to a horn that fits them personally - either makes something easier, or more secure, or maybe gives them more sound options. While playing the same make of horn can enhance the blend, sometimes it can also be helped by having a player find a horn that "fits them" more. Personally, I think matching volume, style, articulation and pitch are what really matters - horn choice is secondary to that.

Jim Scott

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2020-12-28 4:40 p.m.

The thing about blend is that yellow+blue is Just as green as green +green... Besides someobe might need a Bach to get a front of the attack while another might need a Conn to get dark... Use the right tool for You.. Learn Your part, listen to Your collegues, folllow the conductor...

Doubler · by **Doubler** » 2020-12-28 5:31 p.m.

I'll waive my usual $0.02 fee for the sake of ensuring that you get what you pay for and comment that, to my ear, a section using all the same brand (and even the same model, in some cases) has a clean, cohesive unanimity of sound, whereas a section consisting of mixed brands projects a depth of color and texture that can't be achieved otherwise. If you are not completely satisfied with my preceding comment, I'll cheerfully refund your monetary payment in full.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-12-28 5:40 p.m.

[quote="Doubler"]I'll waive my usual $0.02 fee for the sake of ensuring that you get what you pay for and comment that, to my ear, a section using all the same brand (and even the same model, in some cases) has a clean, cohesive unanimity of sound, whereas a section consisting of mixed brands projects a depth of color and texture that can't be achieved otherwise. If you are not completely satisfied with my preceding comment, I'll cheerfully refund your monetary payment in full.[/quote]

But then there's also the whole thing of "listening with your eyes." I've had that problem before. Example - when a prominent player (friend of mine) watched me play the Tuba Mirum while preparing for a big audition, I played the Ab in first (I use long positions) he said it was so out of tune and really hated it. I did the same in the auditions and advanced to the final round. It can be one of those things.

(I also play the Ab in the David in 1st and it works great)

The point is that sometimes we see a cohesive section and thus hear one.

jjenkins · by **jjenkins** » 2020-12-28 7:47 p.m.

This trombonist uses 1st for his Ab. I generally avoid it except as an alternate for quick passages (such as the David).

<YOUTUBE id="0-i5S4uXlNg">https://youtu.be/0-i5S4uXlNg</YOUTUBE>

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-28 7:50 p.m.

[quote="johnjenkins"]This trombonist uses 1st for his Ab. I generally avoid it except as an alternate for quick passages (such as the David).

<YOUTUBE id="0-i5S4uXlNg">https://youtu.be/0-i5S4uXlNg</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

If you use long positions like Neo Bri, it's a real note and not out of tune.

jjenkins · by **jjenkins** » 2020-12-28 7:57 p.m.

I should've mentioned that it doesn't bother me one bit what others do (except for my own students <EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI>). I was just stating my preference, and I understand/agree with the long position idea.

gbedinger · by **gbedinger** » 2020-12-28 8:20 p.m.

Why do players change instruments? Because a Shires responds differently than an Edwards, than a Conn, so on and so forth.

The concentration needed to make a different horn respond the way you want uses the same mental acuity that keeps a player on his/her best shape. It’s human nature.

As for a section playing the same make? If the section plays well with each other and the orchestra, it will sound wonderful and won’t matter what the make(s) are. I have never seen seen mention in the this forum of this question being asked of any other section....it just doesn’t matter. Maybe trumpet or horn players do(?) but I’d be hard pressed to think that the string players ask themselves these silly questions.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-12-28 8:30 p.m.

String players couldn't possibly all play the same maker. The instruments used in symphony orchestra come from small luthiers who can't mass produce. And some of the instruments are so rare and costly that it would be impossible to make a full section of them

I have seen sections where all the trumpet players used Bach 37's. Never seen a section of all Monettes, though.

Some German orchestral horn sections use only Alexander 103s. Maybe some English orchestras use only Paxmans?

Again, I suspect that most sections where everybody plays the same instrument is mostly coincidental.

Bach5G · 2020-12-28 8:31 p.m.

Horns sections made up of Conns? Hiltons?

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2020-12-28 8:39 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Horns sections made up of Conns? Hilton’s?[/quote]

You can hear different horn players in a section if one plays a different style horn, like a Geyer style vs. a Kruspe style, or even a Viennese style horn.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-12-28 8:40 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Horns sections made up of Conns? Holton’s?[/quote]

At one time the horn sections tended to have either Conn 8Ds or Holton 179s (the Farkas model). I don't think it's that uniform any more.

The attached picture shows the Boston Symphony Orchestra Brass section of 1921. Note that the trumpets are evenly split between Bb and C models. The trombones are using Holtons in a German style (request of the Conductor). There are 6 horn players and I can see at least 4 different wraps.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2020-12-28 9:18 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Horns sections made up of Conns? Hiltons?[/quote]
At one time it was pretty common to find entire sections playing the same make and model. You'd have Conn sections (all on 8D's), Alexander sections (all on 103's), and Geyer sections (AFIK, Carl Geyer didn't use model numbers).

Savio · by **Savio** » 2020-12-28 9:26 p.m.

I dont know but I believe with more choices of equipment, the more we hang up in equipment....?

~~[url]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEYftmh4wz0&t=2s

I think these guys had more joy in how to play together? Did they ever have a standard for what instrument to play?

Leif

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-28 9:33 p.m.

Let's put it this way... the people here in the forum are worrying a lot more about what sections play than the sections themselves. They're having a great time (well, before March they were) making music together, no matter the combination of instruments, homogeneous or not.

There's plenty of sections that all play the same brand or even same model tenors and don't think about it twice, just as there are some that don't.

Do some players have to change to fit into a new section? Yup. That's what having a job entails.

Paul Radke, the "new" 2nd trombonist at Los Angeles Philharmonic hasn't had to switch off the Shires he plays, though the rest of the section is on Bachs and Conns. But if David asked him to, you bet your butt he would go find a nice Bach.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2020-12-28 9:41 p.m.

[quote="gbedinger"]I have never seen seen mention in the this forum of this question being asked of any other section....it just doesn’t matter. Maybe trumpet or horn players do(?) but I’d be hard pressed to think that the string players ask themselves these silly questions.[/quote]

We've had this same discussion in horn groups before. (And trumpet players talk about equipment even more than we trombonists do, so I'm sure they have as well.) The swift conclusion was "it doesn't matter, unless you get hired by an orchestra that requires you to play an Alex 103." Many, if not all, of the orchestras with all-103 sections do. That's the only modern example of an orchestra requiring its horns to play certain equipment that I know of, unless Cleveland is still using exclusively 8Ds with their young new principal (I think he does play a Kruspe though, so maybe?). As far as I know Vienna doesn't require a specific brand of Vienna horn...just that it's a Vienna horn.

Nowadays it's mostly Geyers everywhere in the USA except the Hollywood studios. But there are a million different makers of Geyer horns and a section will always have a few of them represented. These days there are many sections made of very different horns (that are arguably more noticeably different than, say, a Bach vs. a Shires) that sound fabulous and uniform together. I like large-throated Kruspes, but I've never had a problem blending with bright Geyers in a section.

At the end of the day, most players just get on with it.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-12-28 9:52 p.m.

[quote="Savio"]I dont know but I believe with more choices of equipment, the more we hang up in equipment....?

~~[url]~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEYftmh4wz0&t=2s

I think these guys had more joy in how to play together? Did they ever have a standard for what instrument to play?

Leif[/quote]

I think at the time of that recording all the trombones were on Holtons. Friedman on a straight (don't know the model), Crisafulli on a 150, and Kleinhammer on a 169. Stilll, the CSO later all played Bachs.

Still, it's the combination of player and horn that needs to match, not necessarily just the horn.

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2020-12-29 12:21 a.m.

I think it's pretty common for woodwind sections to play one brand such as crampon or heckel.

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2020-12-29 12:38 a.m.

I'd like to have everyone in every section i play lead in (legit or bigband) to play what I'm playing, but economics, personal preference will always have the last word. I haven't had any complaints about me using my Conns in any given group, and that's probably because I'm a competent enough musician to blend with my section mates.

Money does play a part in what a player will use as well. Jeff Reynolds would've used his Getzen exclusively if the L.A. Phil section wasn't getting endorsed by Conn.

modelerdc · by **modelerdc** » 2020-12-29 1:37 a.m.

I believe that on the CSO low brass excerpts recording its Freidman on a 42, Gilbertson on the straight version of the Holton 150, can't remember the model number maybe the 155, Crisafulli on his early production Holton Tr150, and Kleinhammer on a Bach 50B.

ronnies · by **ronnies** » 2020-12-29 5:17 a.m.

[quote="johnjenkins"]Except taken from an interview with Jay Friedman

We were in London in 19 … Well, actually, we were in England. We were in Edinburgh. Yeah, Edinburgh, at the Edinburgh Festival, 1971, which is the first European tour that we did with Solti.[/quote]

So he wasn't even in England! :-)

Ronnie

brumpone · by **brumpone** » 2020-12-29 6:11 a.m.

This thread reminded me of a recent episode of Ian Bousfield's podcast, responding to a question about using red brass bells for solo work only, and not for section work.

He mentions that in some orchestras, e.g. one in Switzerland, the first trombone has the right to decide what equipment the section plays on. But in the LSO: "Those instruments were what were required by those individuals at that time to create the sound and the articulation that we all wanted. We all got the same effect by using different equipment."

It's here, starting 23 mins in, with interesting comments on trombone materials and mouthpiece design with Griego:

<STITCHER eid="79301364" fid="479796"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-ian-b ... 4-79301364">https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-ian-bousfield-experience/episode/episode-34-covid-questions-4-79301364</LINK_TEXT></STITCHER>

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2020-12-29 10:12 a.m.

I find it interesting that the title "Sections that play one brand" automatically went to Orchestral Trombone sections with no mention at all of a Big Band sections.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-12-29 10:23 a.m.

[quote="dukesboneman"]I find it interesting that the title "Sections that play one brand" automatically went to Orchestral Trombone sections with no mention at all of a Big Band sections.[/quote]

The original post specified orchestral sections.

I am aware of several Big Bands of the Swing Era (particularly the Glenn Miller Band) that played only one make.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-29 11:17 a.m.

In some sections you join a team, in others, a philosophy.

Chris

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-12-29 11:31 a.m.

every single drum corp

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-29 1:08 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]every single drum corp[/quote]
Now we've gone into the upper echelons of musical performance....

Chris

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2020-12-29 1:47 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="135345" time="1609259518" user_id="8680">
every single drum corp[/quote]
Now we've gone into the upper echelons of musical performance....

Chris
</QUOTE>

:lol:

Agree.

bbocaner · by **bbocaner** » 2020-12-29 3:06 p.m.

[quote="Neo Bri"]Also, about the NSO - weird. When I lived there I remember Matt Guilford playing a Shires (I had a lesson with him before an audition).[/quote]

He switched back to Edwards a number of years ago, at least partially because the rest of the section was playing Edwards.

teachyteach · by **teachyteach** » 2020-12-29 8:43 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="135345" time="1609259518" user_id="8680">
every single drum corp[/quote]
Now we've gone into the upper echelons of musical performance....

Chris
</QUOTE>

I aged out of DCI recently. It really grinds my gears when people act like what modern drum corps do is not musical, or a high level of musical performance. Go watch any corps in the top 5 from the last 20 years and tell me that is not musical or a high level of performance. My last two seasons of corps was with top 5 groups and the individual level was musicianship was very high and the music we performed was rather difficult before factoring in playing it while running around.

Lots of the Corps employ top tier educators and performers to educate their members, Cavaliers use The Martins, Boston has Gino Cipriani, Matt Harloff at Crown, ect. They all craft great musical productions year after year performed at a very high level and standard.

That being said, the marching horns helps I suppose but I still sounded like me whether I was playing on my corps issued Yamaha horns or the Bachs I play on normally (I play trumpet). My issued horn my age out was a real clunker new out of the box and I spent many nights dreaming of my personal Bach. Meanwhile my buddy's horn was phenomenal and a dream to play. All horns vary, even ones from the same production batch.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-29 8:52 p.m.

[quote="teachyteach"]

I aged out of DCI recently. It really grinds my gears when people act like what modern drum corps do is not musical, or a high level of musical performance.[/quote]

Trust me, it's not worth it. No one here has seen a show (much less live) in the last 20 years.

Neo_Bri · by **Neo_Bri** » 2020-12-29 8:56 p.m.

[quote="teachyteach"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="135353" time="1609265288" user_id="7109">

Now we've gone into the upper echelons of musical performance....

Chris[/quote]

I aged out of DCI recently. It really grinds my gears when people act like what modern drum corps do is not musical, or a high level of musical performance. Go watch any corps in the top 5 from the last 20 years and tell me that is not musical or a high level of performance. My last two seasons of corps was with top 5 groups and the individual level was musicianship was very high and the music we performed was rather difficult before factoring in playing it while running around.

Lots of the Corps employ top tier educators and performers to educate their members, Cavaliers use The Martins, Boston has Gino Cipriani, Matt Harloff at Crown, ect. They all craft great musical productions year after year performed at a very high level and standard.

That being said, the marching horns helps I suppose but I still sounded like me whether I was playing on my corps issued Yamaha horns or the Bachs I play on normally (I play trumpet). My issued horn my age out was a real clunker new out of the box and I spent many nights dreaming of my personal Bach. Meanwhile my buddy's horn was phenomenal and a dream to play. All horns vary, even ones from the same production batch.
</QUOTE>
Well said.

DCI corps are all sponsored by some specific brand so they are uniform, so that's a given (as far as I know).

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-30 4:32 a.m.

[quote="teachyteach"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="135353" time="1609265288" user_id="7109">

Now we've gone into the upper echelons of musical performance....

Chris[/quote]

I aged out of DCI recently. It really grinds my gears when people act like what modern drum corps do is not musical, or a high level of musical performance. Go watch any corps in the top 5 from the last 20 years and tell me that is not musical or a high level of performance. My last two seasons of corps was with top 5 groups and the individual level was musicianship was very high and the music we performed was rather difficult before factoring in playing it while running around.

Lots of the Corps employ top tier educators and performers to educate their members, Cavaliers use The Martins, Boston has Gino Cipriani, Matt Harloff at Crown, ect. They all craft great musical productions year after year performed at a very high level and standard.

That being said, the marching horns helps I suppose but I still sounded like me whether I was playing on my corps issued Yamaha horns or the Bachs I play on normally (I play trumpet). My issued horn my age out was a real clunker new out of the box and I spent many nights dreaming of my personal Bach. Meanwhile my buddy's horn was phenomenal and a dream to play. All horns vary, even ones from the same production batch.
</QUOTE>

Well, I knew this would be coming..... my original comment was primarily intended to be humorous, but this isn't....

We were mostly talking about sections in the very top orchestras around the world and what effect using products from the same maker may or may not have.

A handful of people here have actual experience of working at that level, and just how different it is from anything else in the music world....and if and how equipment makes a difference. The mixture of fun and fear, the individual responsibility to the whole, The drug- like elation, the unexpected boredom and the need to be part of the team. Equipment or attitude, it's one of the most amazing things created by humankind and worthy of investigation here, but to be honest, most of what goes on defies meaningful description to third parties.

I'm not sure how marching band fits in there as I have no experience of it. On the surface it seems rather different.

Chris

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-12-30 7:46 a.m.

[quote="teachyteach"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="135353" time="1609265288" user_id="7109">

Now we've gone into the upper echelons of musical performance....

Chris[/quote]

I aged out of DCI recently. It really grinds my gears when people act like what modern drum corps do is not musical, or a high level of musical performance. Go watch any corps in the top 5 from the last 20 years and tell me that is not musical or a high level of performance. My last two seasons of corps was with top 5 groups and the individual level was musicianship was very high and the music we performed was rather difficult before factoring in playing it while running around.

Lots of the Corps employ top tier educators and performers to educate their members, Cavaliers use The Martins, Boston has Gino Cipriani, Matt Harloff at Crown, ect. They all craft great musical productions year after year performed at a very high level and standard.
</QUOTE>

So high!

（　・ω・）

（　・ω・）

（　・ω・）

<YOUTUBE id="cZTQjet_x_g">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/cZTQjet_x_g</YOUTUBE>

But not high enough. The girl at the very end screams higher than the highest level note played by DCI, likely with no training whatsoever...

PhillyG · by **PhillyG** » 2020-12-30 10:25 a.m.

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]St. Louis and National Symphony and Vancouver are all Edwards sections. Toronto is all Shires. I think Minnesota is all Bach.

Some other sections started with everyone on the same brand for a while, but trombonists are always looking for the "better mousetrap" - nothing lasts forever. Good players blend with whatever tools they choose.

Jim Scott[/quote]

Hey Jim, Jeff Hall (bass trombone TSO is now playing Bach!)

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-12-30 10:26 a.m.

DCI is a special consideration. DCI bands play shows in competitions. The musicianship is part of the show. The choreography is part of the show. And the appearance -- including uniformity -- is part of the show. So a section with an assortment of different instruments in the same section loses points regardless of other factors. DCI bands generally buy one brand for everybody and dole out the instruments to the players. It even gets to forcing people to use only ONE mouthpiece!

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-30 11:29 a.m.

How do you award points for 'musicianship ' Bruce ?

Chris

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2020-12-30 11:55 a.m.

[quote="PhillyG"]<QUOTE author="CalgaryTbone" post_id="135178" time="1609174512" user_id="3262">
St. Louis and National Symphony and Vancouver are all Edwards sections. Toronto is all Shires. I think Minnesota is all Bach.

Some other sections started with everyone on the same brand for a while, but trombonists are always looking for the "better mousetrap" - nothing lasts forever. Good players blend with whatever tools they choose.

Jim Scott[/quote]

Hey Jim, Jeff Hall (bass trombone TSO is now playing Bach!)
</QUOTE>

Yeah, it's impossible to keep up with the changes of equipment that happen all the time in the trombone world. Even if sections start out with matching horns, one of them is likely to find something else that works better for them.

Also, some people brought up french horns - I think there are greater differences between some of the different types of horns. Big nickel silver horns are very different than medium brass horns and Vienna horns are a whole different (but cool sounding) world. Our instruments have a more subtle difference in sound quality. Still, there are several prominent horn sections where they still manage to blend with mixes of very different instruments.

Jim Scott

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-12-30 12:12 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]How do you award points for 'musicianship ' Bruce ?

Chris[/quote]

I don't. But I sat next to a guy in my orchestra who used to adjudicate DCI and he told me what he did.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2020-12-30 1:28 p.m.

In florida, our marching bands are judged off a sheet but it’s through the FMEA and not and drum corp organization. Here’s one for solo and ensemble a couple years back.

SteelDeRosa · by **SteelDeRosa** » 2020-12-30 3:36 p.m.

Is the reason for the Crisafulli/Kleinhammer impasse publicly known?

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-30 4:15 p.m.

[quote="SteelDeRosa"]Is the reason for the Crisafulli/Kleinhammer impasse publicly known?[/quote]

One of them wanted to adjudicate marching bands, and the other didn't.....

Joke...in case you are mentally challenged...

Chris

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2020-12-30 4:18 p.m.

My teacher studied with Kleinhammer. If nobody here knows then I could try to ask him.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2020-12-30 4:25 p.m.

I know nothing of the dispute between Mr. Kleinhammer and Mr. Crisafulli and perhaps it is best not to inquire. But, by all accounts, these were both generous, agreeable men. Not speaking to one another for years seems so out of character for both.

EOlson9 · by **EOlson9** » 2020-12-30 4:28 p.m.

Let me preface this by stating that I'm obviously not part of a top orchestra or anything. When I was in college, most of the trombonists in the studio played Conn's. Our professor was a Conn/King guy but never discouraged other brands. Almost always in our wind ensemble and orchestra, we had 88H's playing tenor and my 62H on bass. The school also owned a thayer-modded 110H bass which anyone playing bass besides me used. We had a great blend but I think part of that was just listening to each other, moreso than having the same brand of instruments. Best outing trio I thought was when we had 2 88HYCL's on tenor and me with the 62H on bass, or 3 88HYCL's if I needed a lighter sound.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-12-30 6:18 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]How do you award points for 'musicianship ' Bruce ?

Chris[/quote]

Chris did you not see the video I put up? The score sheet was the bit of staff superimposed at the top of the video.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-12-30 6:56 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Chris did you not see the video I put up? The score sheet was the bit of staff superimposed at the top of the video.[/quote]

In other words, "Highest Note = Best Musicianship?" :idk:

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-12-30 7:05 p.m.

[th][/th][quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="135552" time="1609370328" user_id="3642">
Chris did you not see the video I put up? The score sheet was the bit of staff superimposed at the top of the video.[/quote]

In other words, "Highest Note = Best Musicianship?" :idk:
</QUOTE>

In DCI? Ummm ... Yeah?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-30 7:24 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"][th][/th]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="135557" time="1609372574" user_id="158">

In other words, "Highest Note = Best Musicianship?" :idk:[/quote]

In DCI? Ummm ... Yeah?
</QUOTE>

Hey look, more commentary on something people know nothing about.

I'm not going to hold DCI up to the same standard as the top level of orchestral playing (Put down the pitchfork, Chris!!), but the amount of snobbery about it here has always been pretty off-putting.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-12-30 8:02 p.m.

I haven't said anything negative about DCI. It's a performance art as much as anything else Chat members perform. In fact, it's probably closer to Opera than anything else, combining dance and making music. I won't say Ballet because the dancers don't actually make the music. Certainly more involved than regular High School or College Football performances.

Some of the DCI players I've played with are excellent musicians (and some aren't :tongue:).

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2020-12-30 8:54 p.m.

Re: Crisafulli and Kleinhammer. This is third-hand, and highly edited. Crisafulli was, for a time, the principal in Chicago. He was having some difficulty, and requested assistance from Kleinhammer who declined, remarking that Crisafulli, as the principal in the CSO, was in a position to address the situation by himself. Shortly thereafter, Crisafulli stepped down to second, and remained there for his career.

But that is missing the point of this thread: that it is important to have a sound concept that is settled regardless of equipment. Crisafulli and Kleinhammer may have had (a) personal dispute(s), but they did not allow that to interfere with their professional duties—to play as a section. They may have used different equipment, but they did not allow that to interfere with their concept of sound.

Yes, it is easier to play with a similar sound when the section all play equipment from the same maker. You have, so to speak, removed some of the variables from the equation by doing so, allowing greater control of the known variables. In quasi-logical terms: The same equipment is sufficient to produce a unified sound concept, but not necessary. Conversely, the same sound concept is necessary, but not sufficient.

modelerdc · by **modelerdc** » 2020-12-30 10:19 p.m.

At one time the story was that one of them said something to the other about his intonation and that they stopped speaking after that. This is just hearsay, may be part of your story or as far as I know might not even be true. Nonetheless both great and greatly admired.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-12-30 11:49 p.m.

[quote="modelerdc"]At one time the story was that one of them said something to the other about his intonation and that they stopped speaking after that.[/quote]

Ah, intonation! We can all criticize other's intonation at some time or another, can't we?

I've learned to develop a thick skin about my slippages, try to fix them, and keep my mouth shut about others' "faults."

Doubler · by **Doubler** » 2020-12-31 12:53 a.m.

For those who like DCI, here's a Blast! from the past: <YOUTUBE id="Ok5q9qRJmfA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok5q9qRJmfA</YOUTUBE> . All Yamahas, BTW.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2020-12-31 5:14 a.m.

In orchestras there’s often two tenors and one bass. They are not exactly same instruments so maybe they often choose differently. I don’t think many orchestra say you must play same brand. But maybe when one player change, often the others maybe want to try also? I often see they agree when playing some types of music, to change from their normal setup. Also have to say I don’t play or know much what orchestras do today..

The OP ask about orchestra. Bands and marching bands are a different world. So it’s maybe more about look uniform, the bands economy etc. I don’t know much about this either. But it’s a different animal as you English say?

Leif

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-31 5:40 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="135558" time="1609373149" user_id="3642">
[th][/th]

In DCI? Ummm ... Yeah?[/quote]

Hey look, more commentary on something people know nothing about.

I'm not going to hold DCI up to the same standard as the top level of orchestral playing (Put down the pitchfork, Chris!!), but the amount of snobbery about it here has always been pretty off-putting.
</QUOTE>
No pitchfork.... just wondering why when we were discussing subtle blending issues in top symphony orchestras, such a different form of music making should be brought in. I have greatly enjoyed listening to the sound clips posted, but this very different music making, as was, say, the Maynard Ferguson band or trombone choirs or many other forms of music making . We used to use pitchforks....then electronics took over.

Chris

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2020-12-31 5:59 a.m.

As discussions are mostly regarding US and british orchestra sections at this point and the world is bigger than this: There might be more such cases around the globe.

E.g. some German orchestras require to play German trombones and certainly some play the same. I am pretty sure there are sections that play Lätzsch only, and probably some that play e.g. Kruspe, Voigt, Kromat or Throja only.

Also some orchestras outside Germany might be using complete sets of German trombones. E.g. the Concertgebouw from my knowledge has been using Throja for German literature.

Same might be the case also for orchestras in the US for example.

In France there are probably some sections playing Courtois only.

And in Austria there was at least a time where Schagerl was extremely popular and probably some sections played Schagerl only.

There are always some strange examples.

I am not sure about this, but I think at some point there was a Swedish(?) orchestra that all played Monette trumpets...

I do not think this is absolutely necessary for a section to sound good, but it can make things easier sometimes.

And as mentioned there may be economic incentives at some points.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2020-12-31 6:00 a.m.

[quote="MStarke"]As discussions are mostly regarding US and british orchestra sections at this point and the world is bigger than this: There might be more such cases around the globe.

E.g. some German orchestras require to play German trombones and certainly some play the same. I am pretty sure there are sections that play Lätzsch only, and probably some that play e.g. Kruspe, Voigt, Kromat or Throja only.

Also some orchestras outside Germany might be using complete sets of German trombones. E.g. the Concertgebouw from my knowledge has been using Throja for German literature.

Same might be the case also for orchestras in the US for example.

In France there are probably some sections playing Courtois only.

And in Austria there was at least a time where Schagerl was extremely popular and probably some sections played Schagerl only.

There are always some strange examples.

I am not sure about this, but I think at some point there was a Swedish(?) orchestra that all played Monette trumpets...

I do not think this is absolutely necessary for a section to sound good, but it can make things easier sometimes.

And as mentioned there may be economic incentives at some points.[/quote]

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2020-12-31 7:17 a.m.

Re: orchestras outside Germany playing the same brand when they play German trombones: yes but the reason for them being the same brand is not so much a concern with having the same brand for the same sound and more because if you say "hey let's buy a set of German trombones", you're unlikely to go buy 3 instruments simultaneously from 3 different makers.

On this general topic, I don't feel like this has as big an effect as some seem to think. In some cases, can it contribute positively or negatively to the blend of a section? Sure, but I'd say it's in more extreme cases than simply playing the same vs. a different brand. There's always more difference between each individual's sound and playing than between different horns played by the same person. Joe Alessi still sounds like Joe Alessi. If Joe Alessi's colleagues, who don't sound like Joe Alessi, can blend with him when he plays Edwards, do you really think they can't blend with him now that he's with Shires without changing horns too? It's not like he changed to a German trombone or something with a drastically different presence, blow and sound...

andym · by **andym** » 2020-12-31 7:26 a.m.

I’ve certainly never played in a section that considered playing the same brand.... but I’m going to question the statement above that the same equipment is sufficient to produce a uniform sound concept. That leaves out the players own tendencies. If the players are uniform then the same equipment may be sufficient. But if the players are sufficiently varied in their physical tendencies to different sounds then the same equipment may leave them different. In that case, they may get to a uniform sound concept by using different equipment.

All of this focus on the horns reminds me of a time when my wife was acting as my audience as I tried out mouthpieces and both my older and new (to me) medium bore trombones. After a while she said, “why do you even worry about the different horns when the mouthpieces makes so much more difference.”

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-31 8:38 a.m.

I'll tell you a story from 1980....

I went to see the Chicago Symphony play at the London Promenade concerts. Bruckner 4 and the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra. For Bruckner they played their regular horns ...I think Bach 42, Holton and Frankenbass.... for the Bartok the tenors used 'Shilke' tenors...basically gold plated Yamahas. With the Schlkes they sounded lighter but still basically the same...perhaps slightly better matched, but still part of the best blended brass section I have heard in an orchestra. Pure class.

Chris

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-31 1:50 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="135561" time="1609374261" user_id="3131">

Hey look, more commentary on something people know nothing about.

I'm not going to hold DCI up to the same standard as the top level of orchestral playing (Put down the pitchfork, Chris!!), but the amount of snobbery about it here has always been pretty off-putting.[/quote]
No pitchfork.... just wondering why when we were discussing subtle blending issues in top symphony orchestras, such a different form of music making should be brought in. I have greatly enjoyed listening to the sound clips posted, but this very different music making, as was, say, the Maynard Ferguson band or trombone choirs or many other forms of music making . We used to use pitchforks....then electronics took over.

Chris
</QUOTE>

Well, look at who posted that particular comment... :shuffle:

Alby56 · by **Alby56** » 2020-12-31 2:15 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]In some sections you join a team, in others, a philosophy.

Chris[/quote]

Thats deep Chris....and fundamental....

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-31 2:21 p.m.

[quote="Alby56"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="135342" time="1609258636" user_id="7109">
In some sections you join a team, in others, a philosophy.

Chris[/quote]

Thats deep Chris....and fundamental....
</QUOTE>

Ahhh.... at last somebody gets it. Thank you.

Chris

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-31 2:38 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="135604" time="1609411249" user_id="7109">

No pitchfork.... just wondering why when we were discussing subtle blending issues in top symphony orchestras, such a different form of music making should be brought in. I have greatly enjoyed listening to the sound clips posted, but this very different music making, as was, say, the Maynard Ferguson band or trombone choirs or many other forms of music making . We used to use pitchforks....then electronics took over.

Chris[/quote]

Well, look at who posted that particular comment... :shuffle:
</QUOTE>
Give up on it eh ?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-31 2:57 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="135648" time="1609440623" user_id="3131">

Well, look at who posted that particular comment... :shuffle:[/quote]
Give up on it eh ?
</QUOTE>

Oof! I'm talking about Elow.

mahlertwo · by **mahlertwo** » 2020-12-31 3:04 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="Alby56" post_id="135651" time="1609442114" user_id="3570">

Thats deep Chris....and fundamental....[/quote]

Ahhh.... at last somebody gets it. Thank you.

Chris
</QUOTE>

Is it? Teams are often held together by a philosophy. DCI sections are all there because they choose to be there, making something great together. It's a different form, but it's not inherently better or worse. And Harrison, given the way some classicists view concert bands and military bands, I'm surprised to see you jumping in and sanctioning elitism.

fsgazda · by **fsgazda** » 2020-12-31 3:14 p.m.

In the Spring 1999 ITA Journal (Volume 27, #2), Eric Carlson of the Philadelphia Orchestra wrote a fairly detailed audition journal for the Associate Principal audition that Matt Vaughn won. It's really interesting reading regardless, but one spot talks about this very thing.

Paraphrasing, he said that after the solo/unaccompanied potion of the finals, Matt was the choice, but after the finalists played with the section the committee was split, as some felt the other candidate matched the section better. They decided to repeat the section round only this time with Matt playing the principal trombonist's horn (Nitzan Haroz). They were impressed at how well Matt matched the section with the change (and how good he sounded on unfamiliar equipment).

I know that for a number of years Philadelphia was an all Edwards section, although at a minimum Blair Bollinger now plays a Shires. Don't know about the rest.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-31 3:21 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="135656" time="1609443532" user_id="7109">

Give up on it eh ?[/quote]

Oof! I'm talking about Elow.
</QUOTE>
Yes Aiden....but can we move on from an awkward digression?

Chris

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-31 3:31 p.m.

[quote="mahlertwo"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="135652" time="1609442501" user_id="7109">

Ahhh.... at last somebody gets it. Thank you.

Chris[/quote]

Is it? Teams are often held together by a philosophy. DCI sections are all there because they choose to be there, making something great together. It's a different form, but it's not inherently better or worse. And Harrison, given the way some classicists view concert bands and military bands, I'm surprised to see you jumping in and sanctioning elitism.
</QUOTE>
It's whatever you want it to be...a bit like life really... if someone gets what I was alluding to, I'm happy... but I may be talking utter s**t. Talking about playing is a bit like dancing about art...possibly insightful...possibly a waste of time.

Chris

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-12-31 3:59 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]Isn’t new york now all shires?[/quote]

I believe Dave plays something different.

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2020-12-31 4:07 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="135176" time="1609174325" user_id="8680">
Isn’t new york now all shires?[/quote]

I believe Dave plays something different.
</QUOTE>
He plays yamaha which is pretty uncommon these days in the west.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2020-12-31 4:12 p.m.

[quote="Gary"]As a conductor and Musical Director, I only care about results. If one player needs horn X and another horn Y but get the same resulting sound, that's al I care about. If someone's sticking out in the section, then they need to change. But not to a horn/mpc that matches the solo player in equipment, to equipment that allows that player to match the principle in sound.

Now, I'm not naïve, I realise there will be some who take a hard line on equipment, but I consider that more affectation than taste.[/quote]

Interesting. So do you have the clout to tell a certain player to change instruments? Not sure what you conduct or musical direct but I doubt you'd have any luck getting a player in a major orchestra to change instruments.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2020-12-31 7:02 p.m.

who plays a vintage horn?

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2020-12-31 7:12 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]who plays a vintage horn?[/quote]

A lot of people on this little island....

Chris

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2020-12-31 7:26 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]who plays a vintage horn?[/quote]

Micha Davis. Corp 50b I believe

<YOUTUBE id="FUPrcjlt-bQ">https://youtu.be/FUPrcjlt-bQ</YOUTUBE>

Peacemate · by **Peacemate** » 2020-12-31 7:47 p.m.

[quote="JCBone"]<QUOTE author="jacobgarchik" post_id="135699" time="1609459327" user_id="3890">
who plays a vintage horn?[/quote]

Micha Davis. Corp 50b I believe

<YOUTUBE id="FUPrcjlt-bQ">https://youtu.be/FUPrcjlt-bQ</YOUTUBE>
</QUOTE>

I find calling any 50b vintage is silly. Corp era isn't really that different from current time.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-31 7:57 p.m.

[quote="Peacemate"]<QUOTE author="JCBone" post_id="135704" time="1609460813" user_id="9797">

Micha Davis. Corp 50b I believe

<YOUTUBE id="FUPrcjlt-bQ">https://youtu.be/FUPrcjlt-bQ</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

I find calling any 50b vintage is silly. Corp era isn't really that different from current time.
</QUOTE>

It's a closed wrap single, not many people using those at the pro level.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2020-12-31 8:02 p.m.

Lol I had to double take. I was like "Michael Davis doesn't play that, usually..."

Peacemate · by **Peacemate** » 2020-12-31 8:04 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Peacemate" post_id="135706" time="1609462057" user_id="9017">

I find calling any 50b vintage is silly. Corp era isn't really that different from current time.[/quote]

It's a closed wrap single, not many people using those at the pro level.
</QUOTE>

Couldn't see that in the video, I guess that's kind of on the vintagier side of things. I was thinking more sound wise though, but I see the point.

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2020-12-31 8:11 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Peacemate" post_id="135706" time="1609462057" user_id="9017">

I find calling any 50b vintage is silly. Corp era isn't really that different from current time.[/quote]

It's a closed wrap single, not many people using those at the pro level.
</QUOTE>

Really is pretty impressive

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2020-12-31 8:13 p.m.

[quote="JCBone"]<QUOTE author="jacobgarchik" post_id="135699" time="1609459327" user_id="3890">
who plays a vintage horn?[/quote]

Micha Davis. Corp 50b I believe

<YOUTUBE id="FUPrcjlt-bQ">https://youtu.be/FUPrcjlt-bQ</YOUTUBE>
</QUOTE>

Unrelated but anybody know what the first trombone is playing?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-31 8:15 p.m.

[quote="JCBone"]<QUOTE author="JCBone" post_id="135704" time="1609460813" user_id="9797">

Micha Davis. Corp 50b I believe

<YOUTUBE id="FUPrcjlt-bQ">https://youtu.be/FUPrcjlt-bQ</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

Unrelated but anybody know what the first trombone is playing?
</QUOTE>

Shires model made just for him with a different axial wrap. Morandini model, I think.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2020-12-31 8:24 p.m.

[quote="JCBone"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="135709" time="1609462635" user_id="3131">

It's a closed wrap single, not many people using those at the pro level.[/quote]

Really is pretty impressive
</QUOTE>

what does he do when he needs the b?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-12-31 8:29 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]

what does he do when he needs the b?[/quote]

He has an Eb slide, but usually just fakes them on the end of the slide.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2021-01-01 7:22 p.m.

Cmon he’s got a back up horn for contemporary stuff, right?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2021-01-01 7:34 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]Cmon he’s got a back up horn for contemporary stuff, right?[/quote]

He has two more Kanstul singles. No doubles.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2021-01-01 8:07 p.m.

I’m gonna get a commission for the orchestra and write a bunch of chromatic licks in the vicinity of Db down to pedal A just to spite him.

jjenkins · by **jjenkins** » 2021-01-01 9:50 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]what does he do when he needs the b?[/quote]

Micha told me the following 3 years ago: "Hi JJ! I play everything on a single valve, using E valve whenever low C and B natural are in the part. In the orchestra one can get along just fine with a single valve but in the solo literature it's much more complicated."

He makes it work and does it quite well -- that's all that should matter, regardless of the tool. The IPO is a world class orchestra and he wouldn't have been with them for so long without being effective, you know?

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2021-01-01 9:57 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]I’m gonna get a commission for the orchestra and write a bunch of chromatic licks in the vicinity of Db down to pedal A just to spite him.[/quote]
Forget that. Just make him bounce back and forth between B and Bb. :twisted:

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2021-01-01 9:59 p.m.

Traditional wrap Bachs have enough of a slide pull to get a solid B. It's a viable option if you really feel the second valve adds more weight than convenience, but it definitely requires extra right arm work.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2021-01-01 10:53 p.m.

Pretty clear from his response that his orchestra isn’t doing much demanding contemporary repertoire. <EMOJI seq="1f600" tseq="1f600">😀</EMOJI>

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2021-01-02 9:27 a.m.

Looking at their schedule, I can see why he doesn't need the second valve. This is conservative programming. The only thing that I could see that would give me pause with a single valve horn is the John Williams concert, lol.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ipo.co.il/wp-content/upload ... _19_en.pdf">https://www.ipo.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/sadin_50_70_19_en.pdf</LINK_TEXT>

Anyway my takeaway from this thread is there are a healthy number of trombone manufacturers making orchestral instruments at a high level and they really don't differ that much.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2021-01-02 12:35 p.m.

You can play even contemporary stuff on a single just fine with a good slide hand...it's just more work. (The only exception would be glisses that require a 2nd valve, but those are very few and far between among contemporary works and nonexistent in the standard rep.) If you're proficient with the E valve there's no reason you NEED a double in a working orchestra. For a lot of the rep you don't even need one valve.

MBurner · by **MBurner** » 2021-01-02 12:44 p.m.

Micha plays on single valve horns due to nerve damage in his left hand. Recordings that he posts regularly have all the dexterity anyone needs.

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2021-01-02 2:23 p.m.

[quote="MBurner"]Micha plays on single valve horns due to nerve damage in his left hand. Recordings that he posts regularly have all the dexterity anyone needs.[/quote]

He also has a very interesting left hand grip. Does that have something to do with it?

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2021-01-02 4:20 p.m.

He seems like an outstanding player. TBH if I played more bass I would probably go with single valve closed wrap too, since that's what I use on tenor.

But I don't buy the idea that this setup is suitable for contemporary orchestra music. Granted, I haven't seen the bass trombone parts to commonly played late 20th c rep, but i maintain that he can only get away with this in this type of orchestra that is relatively conservative. There is no way you could get through a season of the LA Phil with that setup (without annoying some composers, some of whom aren't gonna notice and some of whom are going to raise their eyebrows when you tell them you are "faking" notes).

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2021-01-02 4:23 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"](without annoying some composers, some of whom aren't gonna notice and some of whom are going to raise their eyebrows when you tell them you are "faking" notes).[/quote]

I don't think the composers would know you are faking them. If you are good at it, nobody will notice it in an ensemble situation. Except maybe if you have to hold a low b for two measures.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2021-01-02 4:39 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]But I don't buy the idea that this setup is suitable for contemporary orchestra music. Granted, I haven't seen the bass trombone parts to commonly played late 20th c rep, but i maintain that he can only get away with this in this type of orchestra that is relatively conservative.[/quote]

Contemporary big band music typically has much more active bass trombone writing than contemporary orchestra music, and I played that at a professional level without issue on a single for a full year. I've also played plenty of that contemporary orchestra rep you yourself admitted you haven't seen. If you can get around proficiently with the valve in bE, you really don't need a double for 99.9% of anything you'll get on your stand at a gig or in the orchestra. You don't have to "fake" anything. I play a double now because it's less work and I like using the Gb valve alone, but I never had to fake anything or compromise what was on the page with the single.

Also, remember that George Roberts existed and the single was enough for everything he had to play from the Kenton band to the studios. "Single valve bass trombones aren't suitable for modern music" is a myth. We all use doubles because it makes our lives much easier, not because it's impossible to do what we do with one valve.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2021-01-02 5:32 p.m.

Just play low b in 1st with the spit valve open. Problem solved!!

UncleJenny · by **UncleJenny** » 2021-01-03 1:54 p.m.

Just remembered one of Micha‘s posts in the “Bass Trombone Appreciation Society” Facebook group:

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2021-01-03 2:44 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]who plays a vintage horn?[/quote]

What is the definition of vintage?

I used to play an Edwards made about 1990. It had a pretty typical Edwards setup and never got a second look even for a 30 year old horn. I recently switched to a Benge 190 made in the same year. Now I get all sorts of comments and weird looks about how I’m playing on an old/vintage horn. But everyone agrees the Benge works better for me, so that’s all that matters in the end.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2021-01-03 2:49 p.m.

[quote="SwissTbone"]<QUOTE author="jacobgarchik" post_id="135929" time="1609622431" user_id="3890"> (without annoying some composers, some of whom aren't gonna notice and some of whom are going to raise their eyebrows when you tell them you are "faking" notes).[/quote]

I don't think the composers would know you are faking them. If you are good at it, nobody will notice it in an ensemble situation. Except maybe if you have to hold a low b for two measures.
</QUOTE>

Well, I'm a composer and I would know.

Doug Yeo's article talks about Dorati being dissatisfied with people faking the B in Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra. He knew.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2021-01-03 2:53 p.m.

Didn't Sauer play a pre-model number Conn "8h" bell? Nobody dabbling in those anymore in the orchestras?

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2021-01-03 3:03 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]Didn't Sauer play a pre-model number Conn "8h" bell? Nobody dabbling in those anymore in the orchestras?[/quote]

Sauer played a pretty old 8h for many years in LA. He later switched to a more modern 8h in the ‘90’s and then a Shires after he retired from the orchestra.

In American orchestras, I’d be pretty hard pressed to find a player using an older horn as their daily driver now. The previous generation had many examples: Sauer, Dodson, Friedman, Crisafulli, Kleinhammer. Dave Langlitz played the same 88H he won the Met job on for most of his 40 year career there.

I suspect that now a lot of it is the desire to have some sort of company sponsorship/presence on the website as an endorsing artist. In some cases, the manufacturer is making it well worth their while financially.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2021-01-03 3:10 p.m.

easy solution to that: eBay sponsorship

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-01-03 3:18 p.m.

[quote="chromebone"]<QUOTE author="jacobgarchik" post_id="136033" time="1609703600" user_id="3890">
Didn't Sauer play a pre-model number Conn "8h" bell? Nobody dabbling in those anymore in the orchestras?[/quote]

Sauer played a pretty old 8h for many years in LA. He later switched to a more modern 8h in the ‘90’s and then a Shires after he retired from the orchestra.

In American orchestras, I’d be pretty hard pressed to find a player using an older horn as their daily driver now. The previous generation had many examples: Sauer, Dodson, <U>Friedman</U>, Crisafulli, Kleinhammer. Dave Langlitz played the same 88H he won the Met job on for most of his 40 year career there.

I suspect that now a lot of it is the desire to have some sort of company sponsorship/presence on the website as an endorsing artist. In some cases, the manufacturer is making it well worth their while financially.
</QUOTE>

Who's whoa whoa, Friedman is current! Ignore the fact that he has been the principle trombonist there in Chicago for 56 years (and on the payroll for 58)! He's got at least 44 years left to go!

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2021-01-03 3:28 p.m.

Who's whoa whoa, Friedman is current! Ignore the fact that he has been the principle trombonist there in Chicago for 56 years (and on the payroll for 58)! He's got at least 44 years left to go!

Let’s call Friedman multi-generational.

It’s remarkable to think that there are younger players that had full, 30-40 year careers that started after him and they have now retired.

I took a lesson with him last year, he sounded fantastic.

He’ll outlast us all.

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2021-01-03 5:16 p.m.

Doesn't Olaf Ott from berlin play a kruspe?

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2021-01-03 5:29 p.m.

[quote="JCBone"]Doesn't Olaf Ott from berlin play a kruspe?[/quote]

Olaf Ott plays a Throja from my knowledge, Christhard Gössling plays Kruspe.

JCBone · by **JCBone** » 2021-01-03 5:35 p.m.

[quote="MStarke"]<QUOTE author="JCBone" post_id="136061" time="1609712207" user_id="9797">
Doesn't Olaf Ott from berlin play a kruspe?[/quote]

Olaf Ott plays a Throja from my knowledge, Christhard Gössling plays Kruspe.
</QUOTE>

Ah right. I always get mixed up. It doesn't help that they both look the same :lol:

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2021-01-03 6:12 p.m.

[quote="JCBone"]<QUOTE author="MStarke" post_id="136065" time="1609712977" user_id="4208">

Olaf Ott plays a Throja from my knowledge, Christhard Gössling plays Kruspe.[/quote]

Ah right. I always get mixed up. It doesn't help that they both look the same :lol:
</QUOTE>

Well... I think that neither their trombones nor the persons look the same :D

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2021-01-03 6:41 p.m.

RE : Antal Dorati's fascination with the low B Natural in the "Bartok Concerto for Orchestra".

During his tenure with the NSO, Maestro Dorati came to me one day while on tour, and said, "You always play the low B natural in the Bartok so well --- do you find it difficult ?" I told him, "No -- it's quite easy". I know I was playing my King Duo Gravis at the time and demonstrated to him that I would start B natural in the "D" trigger flat 4th position, glissando to the "F" in first using the F trigger, gradually changing triggers around 2nd position. He was pleased with the result and gave his signature nod of approval. As I turned, John Marcellus, our principal trombonist at the time, called me over and told me in a joking way that I should never tell a conductor that ANYthing was easy to play ! Lesson learned ! As some may be aware, Dorati not only knew Bartok, but Dorati himself was an accomplished composer and not easily fooled.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-01-03 6:53 p.m.

[quote="Peacemate"]

I find calling any 50b vintage is silly. Corp era isn't really that different from current time.[/quote]

An unusual point, and I don’t agree. The word “vintage” has become conflated with the word “old,” when the more generally understood use of the word “vintage” means a year, era, or even place of production, as in wine. “Vintage” also implies an above-average or even superior product. It may seem pedantic (and even redundant) to say “a vintage Bach Corporation 50B,” but I think it is accurate.

Many people—myself included—feel some difference between Corporation Bachs and current Bachs. Granted, I haven’t played that many, but my highly unscientific and under-representative sampling makes me think there is a difference. I hesitate to say that one is better than the other—just different.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2021-01-03 7:37 p.m.

[quote="2bobone"]RE : Antal Dorati's fascination with the low B Natural in the "Bartok Concerto for Orchestra".

During his tenure with the NSO, Maestro Dorati came to me one day while on tour, and said, "You always play the low B natural in the Bartok so well --- do you find it difficult ?" I told him, "No -- it's quite easy". I know I was playing my King Duo Gravis at the time and demonstrated to him that I would start B natural in the "D" trigger flat 4th position, glissando to the "F" in first using the F trigger, gradually changing triggers around 2nd position. He was pleased with the result and gave his signature nod of approval. As I turned, John Marcellus, our principal trombonist at the time, called me over and told me in a joking way that I should never tell a conductor that ANYthing was easy to play ! Lesson learned ! As some may be aware, Dorati not only knew Bartok, but Dorati himself was an accomplished composer and not easily fooled.[/quote]

Wow, amazing story.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2021-01-03 7:38 p.m.

Well according to his website Jay Friedman plays a 1966 Latzsch alto. So that's vintage.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-01-03 8:40 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]Well according to his website Jay Friedman plays a 1966 Latzsch alto. So that's vintage.[/quote]

Given how infrequently you are called to play alto in an orchestra, it should last another 100 years...

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2021-01-03 9:42 p.m.

I think Jay has more than one alto, including a modern Thein. He also plays alto on Brahms symphonies and certain "bigger' works like Schubert 9. so I think he gets more use out of his than some other players. He also has a couple of models of alto mouthpieces to help with playing the light literature and the heavier pieces that can fit on the alto. I think that the alto has become a more prominent part of his approach throughout his career, not as a "crutch:", but because he is a curious musician who has evolved over the years. An inspiration to us all, with his long distinguished career!

Jim Scott

Gary · by **Gary** » 2021-01-06 12:22 a.m.

I have never required a player to have a different horn but have made it clear that s/he didn't blend with the section. I usually point out the problems but leave it to them how to resolve it.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-01-06 7:33 a.m.

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]I think Jay has more than one alto, including a modern Thein. He also plays alto on Brahms symphonies and certain "bigger' works like Schubert 9. so I think he gets more use out of his than some other players. He also has a couple of models of alto mouthpieces to help with playing the light literature and the heavier pieces that can fit on the alto. I think that the alto has become a more prominent part of his approach throughout his career, not as a "crutch:", but because he is a curious musician who has evolved over the years. An inspiration to us all, with his long distinguished career!

Jim Scott[/quote]

I have learned quite a lot about when to play alto and when not to for a lot of repertoire based on his articles.

The guy is unstoppable

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2021-01-06 10:00 a.m.

[quote="Gary"]I have never required a player to have a different horn but have made it clear that s/he didn't blend with the section. I usually point out the problems but leave it to them how to resolve it.[/quote]

Depending on the level the orchestra you might be able to pull that off. Maybe.

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2021-01-06 10:31 a.m.

I think one thing this discussion has left out is that the vast majority of orchestras in the US and the world are actually smaller full time regional(Louisville, Indianapolis, Florida, San Diego etc.) and part time per service orchestras. In those situations, there are a much greater variety of horns, older and newer, in sections; the players are not as high profile, don’t play together as often and are also playing/teaching other jobs. In many cases, the playing level and blend is as good as anything out there.

Gary · by **Gary** » 2021-01-08 6:39 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Gary" post_id="136338" time="1609910522" user_id="4286">
I have never required a player to have a different horn but have made it clear that s/he didn't blend with the section. I usually point out the problems but leave it to them how to resolve it.[/quote]

Depending on the level the orchestra you might be able to pull that off. Maybe.
</QUOTE>

Are you saying a MD/Conductor has no recourse if a player doesn't fit with his section nand orchestra?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-01-08 6:50 p.m.

[quote="Gary"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="136377" time="1609945203" user_id="7573">

Depending on the level the orchestra you might be able to pull that off. Maybe.[/quote]

Are you saying a MD/Conductor has no recourse if a player doesn't fit with his section nand orchestra?
</QUOTE>

Really depends on the orchestra. If you have the Cleveland Orchestra, Boston Symphony, or any top tier orchestra the MD may be able to dictate that, although the section themselves would probably intervene first.

Lower tier (particularly per service orchestras) there may not be that much flexibility. About all the MD can do is "blackball" the offending player.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2021-01-08 11:10 p.m.

[quote="Gary"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="136377" time="1609945203" user_id="7573">

Depending on the level the orchestra you might be able to pull that off. Maybe.[/quote]

Are you saying a MD/Conductor has no recourse if a player doesn't fit with his section nand orchestra?
</QUOTE>

I think it depends on the orchestra and the clout of the music director. Let's face it most major orchestras are all great sections as well as many other of the finer orchestras in this country. So for those orchestras I doubt it's an issue. But lay out a scenario where you would be conducting an orchestra(you pick the group) where you'd actually be able to dictate to a chair holder to change instruments. I'm curious.

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2021-01-08 11:24 p.m.

now i'm imagining a conductor saying "principal trombone please switch to oboe 2"

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-01-09 7:08 a.m.

I have never heard of a conductor requesting specific equipment in the UK. All they can ask for is 'small bores' which is a stupid catch all that means use something unlacquered and charge 10-25% extra.

Chris

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2021-01-09 7:44 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]I have never heard of a conductor requesting specific equipment in the UK. All they can ask for is 'small bores' which is a stupid catch all that means use something unlacquered and charge 10-25% extra.

Chris[/quote]

Unlacquered 42B and call it good lol! Maybe UK conductors can't recognize anything other than an 88H wrap? "That's different! Must be small bore!"

"But does it have hand-crafted bell?" (Nerd props to anyone who knows that reference!!)

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-01-09 7:53 a.m.

Nah Harrison....unlacquered 50B.... conductors don't have a clue.... but why should they ? They deal with music and ensemble...and get very well paid for it.

The old tyrants had fingers in every pie.... things have moved on...thankfully.

Chris

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2021-01-09 10:54 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]I have never heard of a conductor requesting specific equipment in the UK. All they can ask for is 'small bores' which is a stupid catch all that means use something unlacquered and charge 10-25% extra.[/quote]

I can imagine a conductor asking for smaller and everyone just losing a valve (1st and 2nd go to straight horns and bass goes to a single).

I always wondered if my one-off Olds Eb alto was the result of a reverse version of that; maybe the conductor didn't like the visual of the regular small alto bell next to the larger bells of the 2nd and bass trombones.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2021-01-09 10:11 p.m.

In the 16 years I played for the Australian Opera, never once did a conductor ask for specific instruments, or for us to use something other than what we used.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2021-01-09 11:23 p.m.

Sorry Ms violinist - you can't play that Stradivarius in our orchestra; the concertmaster is playing an Amati.

You'll never blend! :horror:

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2021-01-10 12:30 a.m.

Every time I've switched equipment for a situation, it's been a personal decision (for better or worse).

I have a feeling that if a conductor asked me to switch to a smaller horn or something, my knee-jerk reaction would be to ask them to try a smaller ego or something.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2021-01-10 12:53 a.m.

Of course a conductor is perfectly within his / her right to ask for any section to "blend" - in terms of volume, intonation, articulation, style, ... You don't want one section member to stick out and not play similarly to their colleagues. This is seldom an issue of the instrument "brand" - more a matter of playing style. Though it could be a matter of equipment type / size (e.g., the 2nd trombonist playing a large-bore in Mozart when the 1st trombonist is playing an alto and the 3rd a smaller instrument than the 2nd). In that case, I would think it's O.K. for the conductor to ask if that discrepancy could be rectified before the concert. :idk:

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2021-01-10 1:10 a.m.

Does anyone have the experience of being told to change horns?

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-01-10 4:53 a.m.

[quote="paulyg"]Every time I've switched equipment for a situation, it's been a personal decision (for better or worse).

I have a feeling that if a conductor asked me to switch to a smaller horn or something, my knee-jerk reaction would be to ask them to try a smaller ego or something.[/quote]
We have it in our contract that small bores can be asked for...nothing more specific. We get paid more if we do that. Because conductors know this, they often ask for small bores....because it costs more, management often refuse. <EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI>.

Chris

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2021-01-10 7:38 a.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]<QUOTE author="paulyg" post_id="136775" time="1610256652" user_id="3299">
Every time I've switched equipment for a situation, it's been a personal decision (for better or worse).

I have a feeling that if a conductor asked me to switch to a smaller horn or something, my knee-jerk reaction would be to ask them to try a smaller ego or something.[/quote]
We have it in our contract that small bores can be asked for...nothing more specific. We get paid more if we do that. Because conductors know this, they often ask for small bores....because it costs more, management often refuse. <EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI>.
</QUOTE>

I can see that it often doesn't matter but there are some cases, like Berlioz pedals, where it completely changes the effect.

FOSSIL · by **FOSSIL** » 2021-01-10 7:52 a.m.

[quote="sf105"]<QUOTE author="FOSSIL" post_id="136786" time="1610272415" user_id="7109">

We have it in our contract that small bores can be asked for...nothing more specific. We get paid more if we do that. Because conductors know this, they often ask for small bores....because it costs more, management often refuse. <EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI>.[/quote]

I can see that it often doesn't matter but there are some cases, like Berlioz pedals, where it completely changes the effect.
</QUOTE>

Well Steve, you know that and I know that, but the accounts department may be deaf to such subtlety. I'm not criticising my company in particular, just saying that professional music making always has an eye on the bottom line.

Chris

MikeS · by **MikeS** » 2021-01-10 9:15 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Does anyone have the experience of being told to change horns?[/quote]

When I arrived at university I had a Holton 256 (the Jay Friedman screw bell model) that I dearly loved. I was told that I would either get a Bach 42 or I would not play in any ensemble at the school. This was not a professional situation and it was also several decades ago, but since you asked... :-)

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2021-01-10 9:32 a.m.

I've never had a conductor ask for different equipment, but I've certainly had a conductor ask for a different character of sound, and sometimes adjusting equipment was the best way to achieve that.

I have had more than one principal trombonist tell me they prefer it when I play one horn over another. I've had another principal ask for the section to play Bachs on a particular program, and I've had situations in which it happened by discussion and experiment that the section decided to play old Conns.

Not long ago I listened back to my old trombone quartet recordings from college. We all played Bachs at the time. Even to my professional ears now, the blend was outstanding, but that was at least as much because we worked like demons on intonation and balance as it was because we all played the same brand instrument.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2021-01-10 9:43 a.m.

All of these comments above by GabrielRice, Fossil, Hornbuilder, sf105, and some others are what I thought were the typical professional protocols. I've definitely chosen certain instruments for certain situations-some of my instruments only work certain places. I still believe that most of the blending issues come down to the individual players.

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2021-01-11 3:29 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]All of these comments above by GabrielRice, Fossil, Hornbuilder, sf105, and some others are what I thought were the typical professional protocols. I've definitely chosen certain instruments for certain situations-some of my instruments only work certain places. I still believe that most of the blending issues come down to the individual players.[/quote]

I am definitely not a pro, which is why I can afford to mess around with different horns. Then there's our own Ed Solomon who likes to kit out his section with a matched set of appropriate horns (still looking forward to trying out my British F tuba with his Betty G Bass one day).

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2021-01-11 6:45 p.m.

[quote="FOSSIL"]We have it in our contract that small bores can be asked for...nothing more specific. We get paid more if we do that. Because conductors know this, they often ask for small bores....because it costs more, management often refuse. <EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI>.

Chris[/quote]
Is there a reason the contract specifies a higher pay rate for playing small bore?

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2021-01-11 10:22 p.m.

It is considered a "double".

The 2nd trombonist in my orchestra was paid doubling when he played bass trombone in my place. That was the only "double" in my section though. I didn't get it for playing contra, or tenor, and the 1st didn't get it for alto.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2021-01-11 10:33 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]It is considered a "double".

The 2nd trombonist in my orchestra was paid doubling when he played bass trombone in my place. That was the only "double" in my section though. I didn't get it for playing contra, or tenor, and the 1st didn't get it for alto.[/quote]

I presume these contracts were negotiated by representatives from both sides - each marginally informed about the nature and consequences of some of their (not always logical) decisions! :idk:

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2021-01-11 11:02 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]It is considered a "double".

The 2nd trombonist in my orchestra was paid doubling when he played bass trombone in my place. That was the only "double" in my section though. I didn't get it for playing contra, or tenor, and the 1st didn't get it for alto.[/quote]

Musically, this is absurd. Contra and alto are certainly doubles, just as if a principal flautist were required to play piccolo on a piece, the principal oboe to play cor anglais, or the principal bassoon to play contra bassoon. However, needs must, and all too often, the bottom line wins.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2021-01-11 11:24 p.m.

Wonder if the strings get doubling fees if they have to play gut strings. :idk:

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2021-01-12 10:41 a.m.

There were all sorts of details that changed during Enterprise Bargaining with my orchestra, just before I won the job. There were several chairs that were changed from Principal to "Section Soloist", which came with a pay rate reduction as well. That included bass trombone, piccolo, bass clarinet and contra bassoon. Doubling for the use of contra may well have been cut too. Will never know...

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2021-06-18 12:46 p.m.

I had a "listening with your eyes" situation while with the Parris Island Marine Band in '79.

We were representing the Marine Corps at this mass military band outdoor gig in Delaware. The HMFIC was some Army officer. All the bands were massed in a huge rectangular formation while warming up before the show. As we were playing a Sousa tune (shocked, right?) the Zero stops in front of us with a big smile on his face. Our Band Officer cut the tune, turned around and saluted the guy. He then said that out of all the bands there that day he was most impressed with our little Jarhead group (about 25 Marines). He did have one complaint though. He asked our Captain "How come the guys in the front rank aren't playing together?". The Skipper asked for clarification and the Army officer said, "They sound great - but their slides are all moving differently. You Marines should be able to get it together".

As he turned to leave the entire band broke out laughing and he slunk away, never to approach again the entire gig. Attached is a photo from that gig.

To keep with the thread's subject, we all played Kings. Some were yellow brass and some were silver. About a year later, another officer (this time a Marine from our command) had us all switch to silver Kings for "uniformity" - He didn't seem to mind that the trumpets, baritones and horns were all yellow brass.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2021-06-18 1:45 p.m.

The latest ITA Journal has a Q&A section written by Dee Stewart, where he asks questions of some of his prominent former students. He asks them about how they approach instrument choice - there are some really good responses there. Mark Lawrence has a nice take on the "all one brand" idea - he says that there are some advantages to it, and he encouraged it at one point, but he has come to all appreciate some of the colors that come from having a mix of brands in the section. Comfort with what the performer is playing on is an important factor, but matching things up can be nice too.

Jim Scott

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