TromboneChat

Last year, Thomas Zsivkovits (Schiffko) and I were hanging out and talking about his recent collaboration on a new signature Oval Baritone https://www.vfcerveny.cz/en/products/ro ... cep-531-tz with the fine folks at Amati/Cerveny. He was telling me how great the old factory is, how old school it feels, and how much they really care about making brass instruments the traditional way.

At the Brass Ark, I often get requests for 5-valve “tenor tubas” (sometimes more appropriately known as upright Spanish baritones or kaiser baritones) that tend to be well suited both sonically and visually for the tenor tuba orchestral repertoire. This style instrument was made popular by the late Roger Bobo, who famously introduced the Alexander 151 and "decreed" it a tenor tuba. The problem with most of the models out there is that they can be outrageously expensive, and since it's such a specialized design for only a handful of pieces, it’s hard to justify that kind of cost.

With Thomas’s project going so well and the first instruments being met with great enthusiasm, we asked Cerveny if they would collaborate with The Brass Ark on a more reasonably priced 5-valve tenor tuba built to my specs and in consultation with Thomas's guiding hand. It needed to be bigger, it needed to have 5 valves with the 5th valve as a half- or whole-step option, it needed a main tuning trigger, and it had to be high quality and handmade.

Here’s what we came up with. Hope you enjoy this first one!

Oh boy... need to go try this.

Dying to know how it plays.

Looks cool, cerveny is a solid manufacturer under represented in the US right now. Why half step as an option for the fifth valve? Tuba players have all but settled on a flat whole step in the states, I rarely see anything other than that or traditional German style which would be a flat minor third. That said, love seeing the user swappable slides, always a nice feature for player choice.

pfrancis wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 6:47 pm Looks cool, cerveny is a solid manufacturer under represented in the US right now. Why half step as an option for the fifth valve? Tuba players have all but settled on a flat whole step in the states, I rarely see anything other than that or traditional German style which would be a flat minor third. That said, love seeing the user swappable slides, always a nice feature for player choice.

These upright euphs can have a lot of nuance, especially in the lower register. So I figured its easy enough, why not offer both half and whole step and then you can pick how you want to tune your 5th valve depending what gives the player the best alternate fingering combinations.

What does that upward pointing valve lever do? Alternative for the 5th valve?

BGuttman wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 9:24 pm What does that upward pointing valve lever do? Alternative for the 5th valve?

tuning slide trigger

How often will one encounter low B? If I had a 5 valve Bb instrument (tenor or contrabass tuba), I'd much rather have and be in tune than need access to that low B. So having the flat half step is nice for that.

If I encounter more low B's, I'll just use the comp euphonium. Not like I've used mine in public... (No opportunity yet)

Nice looking instrument!

Burgerbob wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 9:26 pm

BGuttman wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 9:24 pm What does that upward pointing valve lever do? Alternative for the 5th valve?

tuning slide trigger

Is it connected to the main tuning slide? I can't tell where the linkages run to.

BPBasso wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:57 pm

Burgerbob wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 9:26 pm

tuning slide trigger

Is it connected to the main tuning slide? I can't tell where the linkages run to.

Looks like it does, and there’s a thumb screw on the linkage to set your MTS where you want

BPBasso wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:57 pm

Burgerbob wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 9:26 pm

tuning slide trigger

Is it connected to the main tuning slide? I can't tell where the linkages run to.

Yes, there is a long rod running behind the valve section. This Design or similar is somewhat standard nowadays for good/"highend" rotary valve tenorhorns and baritons and works really well and reliable despite it might look a little bit odd with this long rod. It's nice to have it as you can always play perfectly in tune. I have it on my tenorhorn as well.

Kevbach33 wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:01 pm How often will one encounter low B? If I had a 5 valve Bb instrument (tenor or contrabass tuba), I'd much rather have and be in tune than need access to that low B. So having the flat half step is nice for that.

If I encounter more low B's, I'll just use the comp euphonium. Not like I've used mine in public... (No opportunity yet)

Nice looking instrument!

for playing in tune you have your tuning slide trigger available So I can imagine I would prefer the availability of the low B but of course I will probably never have a real use case for this.

Including a lyre holder seems an odd choice. Does it (a lyre) have use cases other than marching band?

Is it Bb horn?

dukesboneman wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 6:06 am Is it Bb horn?

It sure looks the right length for Bb.

For those of you who are concerned about low B Natural, with 5 valves you have enough tubing at your disposal to get there.

AtomicClock wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 6:01 am Including a lyre holder seems an odd choice. Does it (a lyre) have use cases other than marching band?

Beer hall!

elmsandr wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 8:49 am

AtomicClock wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 6:01 am Including a lyre holder seems an odd choice. Does it (a lyre) have use cases other than marching band?

Beer hall!

Had to get all of the potential uses covered gotta recoup the instrument cost any way you can!

Cool! I want one. I don’t need one. I can’t afford one. I want one.

slipmo wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 9:55 am

elmsandr wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 8:49 am
Beer hall!

Had to get all of the potential uses covered gotta recoup the instrument cost any way you can!

I can definitely see this as part of a local brass / Oompah band.

Also looking at the current Cerveny lineup, virtually all of their Kaiser tubas have lyre holders. Probably also have the two rings on the back.

Kbiggs wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 9:58 am Cool! I want one. I don’t need one. I can’t afford one. I want one.

Me too

Kbiggs wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 9:58 am Cool! I want one. I don’t need one. I can’t afford one. I want one.

Yeah, exactly.

Oh, my.....

Every time I think silver plate looks better, I see something like this. And vice-versa. I guess the grass is always blingier on the other side.

Kbiggs wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 9:58 am Cool! I want one. I don’t need one. I can’t afford one. I want one.

So say we all!

AtomicClock wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 4:06 pm Every time I think silver plate looks better, I see something like this. And vice-versa. I guess the grass is always blingier on the other side.

Would you really want to hide that beautiful rose brass bell under silver?

I have a silver plated Perantucci / Sterling Euphonium. The body is, I believe, all nickel silver, with a gold brass bell. But it's completely silver plated so no one will ever know.

For about 20 years I played a Cerveny CBB 781-4R tuba: https://www.vfcerveny.cz/en/products/ro ... cbb-781-4r It was incredibly beautiful and had a wonderful sound. I slicked up that 1st valve vertical tuning slide so it could be used to dynamically tune any pitch involving that valve, and thereafter rarely used the 4th valve. It also was something of a dent magnet (that 90% copper red brass!) that made me constantly paranoid in most groups.

Finally I sold it (with only a couple of small dents near the bottom of the bottom bow) and went in the EEb direction. I'm still not sure that was the best move. It was such a great horn.

This might be an indelicate time to bring this up, but Wessex also has a handbuilt 5 v tenor tuba. Missing the mts trigger, I think.
https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/bb ... nium-er700

I haven't had the pleasure to play either, but the Wessex is featured in a short youtube video where it has a more tub-ish sound than a euph or baritone.

Has anyone played this other instrument?

at more than $3k, I'd rather just get the real thing.

hyperbolica wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 6:06 pm This might be an indelicate time to bring this up, but Wessex also has a handbuilt 5 v tenor tuba. Missing the mts trigger, I think.
https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/bb ... nium-er700

I haven't had the pleasure to play either, but the Wessex is featured in a short youtube video where it has a more tub-ish sound than a euph or baritone.

Has anyone played this other instrument?

Yeah, I spent about half an hour with it at NABBA in early April. It didn't come home with me, and I had cash in my pocket.

Dennis wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 7:29 pm
Yeah, I spent about half an hour with it at NABBA in early April. It didn't come home with me, and I had cash in my pocket.

Well, that says something. Did you write that up somewhere else?

hyperbolica wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 6:06 pm This might be an indelicate time to bring this up, but Wessex also has a handbuilt 5 v tenor tuba. Missing the mts trigger, I think.
https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/bb ... nium-er700

This slipped past me actually, it's cool that they've done one too. While it's a little more than half the price, I would assume it's not in the same league as the Cerveny - every new Cerveny instrument I've tried has been exceptional.

Finetales wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 8:35 pm
This slipped past me actually, it's cool that they've done one too. While it's a little more than half the price, I would assume it's not in the same league as the Cerveny - every new Cerveny instrument I've tried has been exceptional.

Sometimes, especially for a non-primary instrument, "not as good" could still be "good enough". Unfortunately, from a report I've heard separately, the Wessex doesn't seem to make it up to the actually usable baseline that you have to get to. I'd love to get a report on the Cerveny.

I did get a Wessex Festivo several years back because I was looking for valves down front instead of up top. I'm a little concerned that the line of the paddles on the Cerveny would put your wrist at an angle. I might rather see something like the Marzan tuba. But I'm sure you can find a way to play it comfortably.

Hey everyone, new user here. I’m not a Trombone player but play other middle/low brass. I signed up just for this thread. My first Instrument being French Horn, I am partial to rotary valves.

A few questions about this new Tenor Tuba.
Is it a variation on the 533?
You said, “it needed to be bigger”, in what way is it bigger? Bore, throat, wrap?
What is the bore size? Dual bore? Graduated bore?

Thanks

Beautiful looking horn, Noah! I don't even really play valves and you got me wanting one.

tbonesullivan wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 5:47 pm
I have a silver plated Perantucci / Sterling Euphonium. The body is, I believe, all nickel silver, with a gold brass bell. But it's completely silver plated so no one will ever know.

The body is yellow brass. There are (or used to be) a few posts in the forum over on Dave Werden’s site by people who visited the shop with photos showing euphs and other instruments in various build stages.

Custom Music (at the time, the exclusive US importer) only stocked silverplate, but the entire Sterling Virtuoso and Sterling Perantucci Symphonic lines were available in raw brass and lacquered brass as well. Given that Sterling was a small shop that made most parts (including, in the Sterling Perantucci era, valve blocks and pistons) in house, and that their primary market was British brass bands, I’m skeptical that they would have used much, if any, nickel sliver in their production, much less made entire instrument bodies out of it.

I used to have a raw brass Sterling Virtuoso euph with rimless bell. It was the most steampunk euph ever!

Finetales wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 8:35 pm I would assume it's not in the same league as the Cerveny - every new Cerveny instrument I've tried has been exceptional.

When I sold my Cervany 781, I got a Wessex Champion (Eb compensator, Besson clone). While it was wonderful to play (sound, intonation, valves, etc.), it definitely wasn't in the same class as the Cerveny in terms of workmanship, materials, and fit & finiish).

CraigF wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 5:28 am Hey everyone, new user here. I’m not a Trombone player but play other middle/low brass. I signed up just for this thread. My first Instrument being French Horn, I am partial to rotary valves.

A few questions about this new Tenor Tuba.
Is it a variation on the 533?
You said, “it needed to be bigger”, in what way is it bigger? Bore, throat, wrap?
What is the bore size? Dual bore? Graduated bore?

Thanks

Welcome to the forum!

This is a variation on the 533 but this one has a special new/old stock bell on it that was found at the factory, they only had two of these bells left over because the original mandrel was lost. If this model is a successful collaboration, we will spend the money to have a new mandrel made to produce more. It is a different taper than the current 533 and more suited for this application which is why we used it. Additionally this model has a different leadpipe taper on it that comes from Thomas's signature model. This one takes a euro shank mouthpiece.

I want to also offer these in all yellow brass with kranz and also a fully nickel silver version at some point (but that may be a ways away)

slipmo wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 9:41 am I want to also offer these in all yellow brass with kranz ...

Classic Cerveny and old world elegance.

A large shank mouthpiece receiver would be a nice option for wider appeal, I would think. As wide as the market for such an instrument is, of course.

For reasons I can't explain or understand, i find myself drawn to things like this. Rotaries and a tall bell. I did a tuba stint and was drawn to the miraphone 186 and Alexanders.

Aside from a couple of famous solos, what is the use case for these things? Is it just for the timber difference from a euph? Those that want one, what do you intend to use it for?

sungfw wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:06 amThe body is yellow brass. There are (or used to be) a few posts in the forum over on Dave Werden’s site by people who visited the shop with photos showing euphs and other instruments in various build stages.

Custom Music (at the time, the exclusive US importer) only stocked silverplate, but the entire Sterling Virtuoso and Sterling Perantucci Symphonic lines were available in raw brass and lacquered brass as well. Given that Sterling was a small shop that made most parts (including, in the Sterling Perantucci era, valve blocks and pistons) in house, and that their primary market was British brass bands, I’m skeptical that they would have used much, if any, nickel sliver in their production, much less made entire instrument bodies out of it.

I'll have to take a look again when I get home to see what materials were used. I should get it out more often to play it. I forget exactly when, but I was told the body was Nickel Silver, though I could be mistaken.

The tuning slides must all be silver plated then.

hyperbolica wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 10:44 am Aside from a couple of famous solos, what is the use case for these things? Is it just for the timber difference from a euph? Those that want one, what do you intend to use it for?

Well, if you play regularly in a "German Band" in the US, I think it would be very cool. Otherwise, I think it's more an objet d'art. And let's face it ... it's debatable whether you really NEED it for those couple of famous solos.

slipmo wrote: Tue Jun 03, 2025 5:49 pm This style instrument was made popular by the late Roger Bobo, who famously introduced the Alexander 151 and "decreed" it a tenor tuba.

What was the Alex 151 used for before Bobo issued his decree?

Well, Alexander lists it as a "Baritontuba", but I think there's not much to make of the 'tuba' part of that. It's definitely (structurally) a part of the tuba family (but so is the Flugelhorn and the Euphonium). In fact, the 151 does not reside in Alexander's categories of tubas, but of "› Instrumente › Tenorhörner & Baritone". That is, it's a "bariton(e)". That's historically how it's been used. It was originally designed for Spanish Banda (folk band) players.

ghmerrill wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 10:52 amAnd let's face it ... it's debatable whether you really NEED it for those couple of famous solos.

I've always wondered whether the "tenor tuba" Holst was thinking of when he wrote The Planets is the same thing as the "tenor tuba" Mussorgsky was thinking of when he wrote Pictures at an Exhibition. I suspect not.

That said, I can certainly imagine a discussion running along the lines of: "Well, they're both really good players, but this guy will play the part on euphonium while other guy has an actual tenor tuba."

JohnL wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 11:35 am That said, I can certainly imagine a discussion running along the lines of: "Well, they're both really good players, but this guy will play the part on euphonium while other guy has an actual tenor tuba."

I read a report (I think on the old Tubenet) of a guy who was playing "Pictures" in an orchestra on a euphonium and was told by the conductor that a "tenor tuba" was required for the part. He replied "Just a moment, I'll get my tenor tuba," took the euph outside, came back inside with it, and played the part to the conductor's satisfaction.

Now perhaps this story was apocryphal, or perhaps it was not. But even if was, it remains true that most people can't (especially in a passage like that) tell exactly what instrument it's being played on. And it's often played on a CC tuba (or an F, or an Eb, or even a BBb). You will also see claims that Ravel scored it for "a euphonium or a tenor tuba". There's a lot of sloppiness in the historical reporting here.

The notion of an "actual tenor tuba" suffers from a reputation of extreme ambiguity or vaguery. Historically, the term “tuba ténor” in Ravel's time was used to refer to a "small tuba" (conical board) in Bb (not contra-bass BBb) -- I.e., what we would call a "euphonium"

(I wonder how many times this discussion has occurred over the past 100 years. )

JohnL wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 11:35 amI've always wondered whether the "tenor tuba" Holst was thinking of when he wrote The Planets is the same thing as the "tenor tuba" Mussorgsky was thinking of when he wrote Pictures at an Exhibition. I suspect not.

That said, I can certainly imagine a discussion running along the lines of: "Well, they're both really good players, but this guy will play the part on euphonium while other guy has an actual tenor tuba."

Well, remember that Pictures at an Exhibition was orchestrated by Maurice Ravel, so there's a good chance that he was thinking about a French C Tuba, which has Six Valves, and is pitched a whole step above a "Euphonium".

Holst wrote it for "Tenor Tuba", but most likely being in England, had the Euphonium in mind, which is pretty much a tenor tuba. British style Eb and BBb compensating tubas are all part of the same family. If i recall, the evolution of the tuba was in some case convergent, as the concept was arrived at by multiple designers who began at different starting points. In some cases there were competing designs in the same market.

This reminds me of parts marked 'Ophicleide" and discussion of whether they were actually performed on ophicleide during the time period they were written.

tbonesullivan wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 10:45 am I'll have to take a look again when I get home to see what materials were used. I should get it out more often to play it. I forget exactly when, but I was told the body was Nickel Silver, though I could be mistaken.

The tuning slides must all be silver plated then.

Initially, the slides on my 1065HGS were lightly silverplated, but the plating on the first, third, main, and comp slides has long since worn off.

tbonesullivan wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 1:29 pm Well, remember that Pictures at an Exhibition was orchestrated by Maurice Ravel, so there's a good chance that he was thinking about a French C Tuba ...

This is very unlikely. The French C Tuba was not referred to as a "tenor tuba" but a "tuba en Ut" ("tuba in C"). It was simply THE tuba for the French.

JohnL wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 11:35 am

ghmerrill wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 10:52 amAnd let's face it ... it's debatable whether you really NEED it for those couple of famous solos.

I've always wondered whether the "tenor tuba" Holst was thinking of when he wrote The Planets is the same thing as the "tenor tuba" Mussorgsky was thinking of when he wrote Pictures at an Exhibition. I suspect not.

That said, I can certainly imagine a discussion running along the lines of: "Well, they're both really good players, but this guy will play the part on euphonium while other guy has an actual tenor tuba."

Mussorgsky composed Pictures, but it's a piano piece that's been orchestrated at least half a dozen times. The Ravel orchestration is the most widely performed of the various orchestrations. Ravel wrote Bydlo for a French C tuba, which was basically a six-piston valve extra-large bore instrument pitched in C a step above a euphonium.

There is little doubt that Holst was writing for a Bb euphonium. Outside of British brass bands and handful of even more obscure traditions, tubas are notated at pitch in bass (very, very, very occasionally tenor) clef. The player is expected to pick the tuba (F, Eb, C, Bb) and know the fingerings for the chosen instrument. Holst's tenor tuba part is notated in Bb treble clef, sounding a major ninth lower. That is, it's exactly the transposition used in a British brass band.

As long as I'm on it, Strauss wrote for tenor tuba in Ein Heldenleben and Don Quixote. The parts are Bb bass clef (sounding a major second lower) occasionally going into Bb treble clef sounding a major ninth lower. Apparently Strauss's original intent was to use a tenor (i.e. Bb alto) Wagner tuba, but he wasn't happy with the result. He gave leave to use what we would call a euphonium on the part and was apparently much happier with the result.